Quote:The resolution being: Jesus was a Jewish man who was crucified under Pontius Pilate’s authority during the reign of Tiberius Caesar and Jesus was a reputed miracle worker.

You've got to be fucking kidding?

(January 10, 2012 at 8:26 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(January 10, 2012 at 7:51 pm)Fpvpilot Wrote: Out of curiosity, who were those other miracle workers and people who claimed to be the messiah?

The very NT of the Bible details numerous miracles of those who were not even declared to be the Messiah at all. It was a more superstitious time and claims of miracles are hardly distinctive any more than the name "Yeshua".

However, if you insist on a messianic claimant who performed miracles, this is detailed in a 4th century Talmudic entry. Sometimes offered by apologists as evidence for their own Jesus, it says "Yeshua" was condemned for heresy and sorcery and crucified after a trial. At first glance, it does seem like a reference to the Christian Jesus, albeit a very late one. Then we read that he had five named disciples (none of them familiar names), the trial lasted 40 days and he was connected with the government. Not your godboy but another Yeshua with disciples that allegedly worked magic.

Basically, you want to argue Jesus-Of-The-Gaps and try to con me into trying to prove a negative. Uh uh.

Hi, DeistPaladin,


Thank you for your response. I will depart once you clear things up for me. “The Gospels are myths, nothing more” (post #287), so they cannot be used as evidence of other miracle workers.

When did the other Yeshua live that the Babylonian Talmud references? I ask because I am requesting details on the many other people in the first century who you assert claimed to be the Messiah and who purportedly performed miracles. Also, please don’t forget to cite the sources with precision. Regarding the Babylonian Talmud, for example, a proper citation would have been: b.Sanh 43a.

Thanks,

Fpvpilot

(January 10, 2012 at 8:35 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:The resolution being: Jesus was a Jewish man who was crucified under Pontius Pilate’s authority during the reign of Tiberius Caesar and Jesus was a reputed miracle worker.

You've got to be fucking kidding?

I should have seen it coming. Christians say that Jesus' story is "the greatest ever told". His ministry shook the foundations of the religious and political establishment. People came from all over to see him. ...but he was just an insignificant rabbi that only the peasants paid any attention to and that's why there are no contemporary references.

They will do this every time, I'm convinced. The stark contrast between Gospel claims and the dearth of contemporary evidence is too great otherwise.

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(January 10, 2012 at 8:45 pm)Fpvpilot Wrote: Thank you for your response. I will depart once you clear things up for me. “The Gospels are myths, nothing more” (post #287), so they cannot be used as evidence of other miracle workers.

You said, "reputed to have performed miracles". Such wording allows for stories both true and false.

Quote:"the greatest ever told" sold.

I always enjoy this essay by Richard Carrier whenever this particular variant of the bullshit story comes up.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/r...kooks.html

Quote:We all have read the tales told of Jesus in the Gospels, but few people really have a good idea of their context. Yet it is quite enlightening to examine them against the background of the time and place in which they were written, and my goal here is to help you do just that. There is abundant evidence that these were times replete with kooks and quacks of all varieties, from sincere lunatics to ingenious frauds, even innocent men mistaken for divine, and there was no end to the fools and loons who would follow and praise them. Placed in this context, the gospels no longer seem to be so remarkable, and this leads us to an important fact: when the Gospels were written, skeptics and informed or critical minds were a small minority. Although the gullible, the credulous, and those ready to believe or exaggerate stories of the supernatural are still abundant today, they were much more common in antiquity, and taken far more seriously.

Which makes this bit from Life of Brian right on the money.

(January 10, 2012 at 8:46 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: You said, "reputed to have performed miracles". Such wording allows for stories both true and false.

Are you saying that you believe those figures existed and that the Gospels attributed miracles to them? Or, are you saying that those figures never existed and that they were not reputed miracle workers?

Thanks,

Fpvpilot

(January 10, 2012 at 9:13 pm)Fpvpilot Wrote: Are you saying that you believe those figures existed and that the Gospels attributed miracles to them? Or, are you saying that those figures never existed and that they were not reputed miracle workers?

I'm not saying who did or did not exist. I'm saying your vague wording allows for many scenarios, including false stories about real persons, true stories about real persons, exaggerated stories about real persons, or even stories about mythical characters. Hercules was "reputed" to have performed miracles.

(January 10, 2012 at 9:23 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(January 10, 2012 at 9:13 pm)Fpvpilot Wrote: Are you saying that you believe those figures existed and that the Gospels attributed miracles to them? Or, are you saying that those figures never existed and that they were not reputed miracle workers?

I'm not saying who did or did not exist. I'm saying your vague wording allows for many scenarios, including false stories about real persons, true stories about real persons, exaggerated stories about real persons, or even stories about mythical characters. Hercules was "reputed" to have performed miracles.

Okay. So you are not saying those particular individuals necessarily existed. Who were the other first century people claiming to be the Messiah and the other first century Jewish miracle workers that you alluded to, then? Also, when did the Yeshua that you mentioned live? Please cite the relevant sources for each of your assertions.

Thanks,

Fpvpilot

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(January 10, 2012 at 9:02 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I always enjoy this essay by Richard Carrier whenever this particular variant of the bullshit story comes up.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/r...kooks.html

Here is Glenn Miller’s review of Carrier’s web article, too, if anyone is interested:

http://christianthinktank.com/mqfx.html


Kind regards,

Fpvpilot

(January 10, 2012 at 9:41 pm)Fpvpilot Wrote: Okay. So you are not saying those particular individuals necessarily existed. Who were the other first century people claiming to be the Messiah and the other first century Jewish miracle workers that you alluded to, then? Also, when did the Yeshua that you mentioned live? Please cite the relevant sources for each of your assertions.

I made it clear from the get-go that I was not an expert on ancient history, that I was going to debate you using the Bible. You backed out and now want to change the subject to a field I've already told you I'm not an expert in.

You've demonstrated the same sleazy, deceptive tactics that I expect from other apologists.

(January 10, 2012 at 10:28 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(January 10, 2012 at 9:41 pm)Fpvpilot Wrote: Okay. So you are not saying those particular individuals necessarily existed. Who were the other first century people claiming to be the Messiah and the other first century Jewish miracle workers that you alluded to, then? Also, when did the Yeshua that you mentioned live? Please cite the relevant sources for each of your assertions.

I made it clear from the get-go that I was not an expert on ancient history, that I was going to debate you using the Bible. You backed out and now want to change the subject to a field I've already told you I'm not an expert in.

You've demonstrated the same sleazy, deceptive tactics that I expect from other apologists.

I’m sorry if I upset you. I just wanted you to substantiate your assertions. That’s all. I will leave you alone now. Hopefully, as time permits in the coming months, we will be able to converse again.

Take care.

Kind regards,

Fpvpilot

Passive-aggressive much?