(February 2, 2012 at 6:08 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: If that is the case, I will remind you that personal testimony does count as evidence, especially when corroborated. Many of the things we know about history comes solely from personal testimony.

The problem is that we're supposed to take these things at face value, because there is usually no corroborating evidence. If I told you I walked down the street and found a snake which started talking to me, you'd think I was either lying, delusional, or both. But someone writes it in a book a few thousand years ago, and it becomes undeniable truth. Not only that, but there is the fact that even eyewitnesses get things wrong. It's not that they're deliberately lying, but they just don't remember things exactly as they happened. Take the biblical stories of Jesus which as pointed out above, are nothing more than hearsay about hearsay from oral reports which weren't recorded until 40-70 years after all the events supposedly took place.

Quote:Second, it is simply fallacious to say that because you do not see any miracles today, that they couldn't have happened in the past.

True, but applying Occam's Razor, which is more likely? That an unknowable, all-powerful deity produced events which contradict the known laws of science, or that they are simply stories which were made up? The fact that such events aren't occurring today points to the latter.

Quote:God could also have good reasons for not openly revealing His existence to the world.

Yeah, because the world is in perfect shape now and nobody ever argues or kills someone else over religion.

Quote:Well, first of all, there are many reports all over the world and throughout history of miracles occuring

Such reports usually spread by blithering idiots who believe in fucking miracles in the first place.

Sorry, all you have there is a self-fulfilling fantasy.

As I said in another thread claiming miracles... video or it didn't happen. And even then, video is easily faked these days.

(February 2, 2012 at 6:25 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: The problem is that we're supposed to take these things at face value, because there is usually no corroborating evidence. If I told you I walked down the street and found a snake which started talking to me, you'd think I was either lying, delusional, or both. But someone writes it in a book a few thousand years ago, and it becomes undeniable truth. Not only that, but there is the fact that even eyewitnesses get things wrong. It's not that they're deliberately lying, but they just don't remember things exactly as they happened. Take the biblical stories of Jesus which as pointed out above, are nothing more than hearsay about hearsay from oral reports which weren't recorded until 40-70 years after all the events supposedly took place.

Well, the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan. Whether he appeared in the form of a snake, spoke through a snake, or was simply identified as a serpent, I do not know. So, if you're hearing a snake speak to you, I would probably chop it up to demonic intervention.

As far as dates and what not, what you said isn't entirely accurate. You have the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of John which were written by direct eyewitnesses. The gospel of Luke was written by a historian, and both Luke and Mark knew the apostles and Paul. Paul himself was a direct witness of the resurrected Jesus. The generally agreed dates for both the Pauline epistles and the Gospel of Matthew places them within 20 years of the crucifixion. The founders of the early church all knew eachother and knew what they saw; I don't think it's plausible to say these were simply legends, especially when you consider that the apostles nearly all went to their death attesting Jesus as God as the absolute truth.

(February 2, 2012 at 6:25 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: True, but applying Occam's Razor, which is more likely? That an unknowable, all-powerful deity produced events which contradict the known laws of science, or that they are simply stories which were made up? The fact that such events aren't occurring today points to the latter.

I think the existence of absolute laws are evidence for a Creator, not against one. How are there absolute laws in a material Universe that is constantly changing? How do you explain the uniformity in nature? It doesn't make sense except from a theistic worldview in my opinion.

I also don't think that is good evidence, that because miracles aren't happening (at least that the average person is not aware of them), that they didn't happen in the past, Occams razor or not. It certainly isn't something you could use to evaluate the claim of Gods existence. You obviously aren't going to believe in miracles if you don't believe in God,but I think you also have to admit that if God exists miracles are certainly possible. So this is really tertiary to the question.

I think the evaluate the claim from a naturalistic standpoint you have to look at origins. Where Universe come from? Did something come from nothing? Or is there something eternal which caused it? Which is more plausible?

(February 2, 2012 at 6:25 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Yeah, because the world is in perfect shape now and nobody ever argues or kills someone else over religion.

According to the bible, and secular history, the world has always been like this. The bible says this is a fallen world and we have a fallen, corrupt nature due to sin. That is the reason Christ came, to rescue us from this.

---

(February 2, 2012 at 6:29 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Well, first of all, there are many reports all over the world and throughout history of miracles occuring

Such reports usually spread by blithering idiots who believe in fucking miracles in the first place.

Sorry, all you have there is a self-fulfilling fantasy.

I've seen many reports from skeptics and (now) ex-atheists. How do you explain them? Almost everyone in the world believes in God..do you believe they're all delusional and that you are the one who is right?

(February 2, 2012 at 6:08 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: Also, in the Christian worldview, we accept the supernatural claims of other religions. What we reject is their explanation for these events. What scripture says is that Satan also has supernatural power, and as the bible indicates, he can disguise himself as an angel of light, and his ministers, ministers of righteousness. He has the supernatural power to create what the bible calls "lying signs and wonders". He can back up belief in a false god with supernatural evidence.

I'm afraid you have been deceived, brotherlylove. As a devotee to the flying spaghetti god I can tell you that the true author of miracles is our own lord. However He is not the only one who can perform miracles. The dark lord, the saucy meatball god, can also fool men into believing they are witnessing true miracles. I am sorry to have to tell you that all the so called Christian 'miracles' are actually the product of the saucy deceiver. Only the flying spaghetti god can perform genuine miracles. Sadly, the deceiver has taken you in as he has so many others.

How am I knowing these wondrous facts you might ask? It is written in our most sacred text, The Joy of Pasta. Antonio, the Chief Chef himself, received the sacred stone menu boards from which all knowledge of the magnificent Flying Spaghetti god was first delivered to man. Antonio, blessed be his name, was an honest cook and had no reason to lie. Though the stone menu boards have been lost to history, their truth, the revealed word of the flying Spaghetti god, can still be found in the Joy of Pasta.

It isn't too late to repent. Turn away from this false god Jehovah and you can still be seated at the table of our true god. There you may feast on the seven blessed courses for all time. Now go and blaspheme no more!

(February 2, 2012 at 7:50 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(February 2, 2012 at 6:08 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: Also, in the Christian worldview, we accept the supernatural claims of other religions. What we reject is their explanation for these events. What scripture says is that Satan also has supernatural power, and as the bible indicates, he can disguise himself as an angel of light, and his ministers, ministers of righteousness. He has the supernatural power to create what the bible calls "lying signs and wonders". He can back up belief in a false god with supernatural evidence.

I'm afraid you have been deceived, brotherlylove. As a devotee to the flying spaghetti god I can tell you that the true author of miracles is our own lord. However He is not the only one who can perform miracles. The dark lord, the saucy meatball god, can also fool men into believing they are witnessing true miracles. I am sorry to have to tell you that all the so called Christian 'miracles' are actually the product of the saucy deceiver. Only the flying spaghetti god can perform genuine miracles. Sadly, the deceiver has taken you in as he has so many others.

How am I knowing these wondrous facts you might ask? It is written in our most sacred text, The Joy of Pasta. Antonio, the Chief Chef himself, received the sacred stone menu boards from which all knowledge of the magnificent Flying Spaghetti god was first delivered to man. Antonio, blessed be his name, was an honest cook and had no reason to lie. Though the stone menu boards have been lost to history, their truth, the revealed word of the flying Spaghetti god, can still be found in the Joy of Pasta.

It isn't too late to repent. Turn away from this false god Jehovah and you can still be seated at the table of our true god. There you may feast on the seven blessed courses for all time. Now go and blaspheme no more!

I fully acknowledge there are thousands of religions, some more absurd than others. However, either one of them is right or none of them are. You believe none, I believe one.

For instance, 1 + 1 has only one right answer. We don't accept other answers to that problem as being equally valid. In the same way, I believe there is only one way to know God, and that it is through Jesus Christ.

(February 2, 2012 at 8:10 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: I believe there is only one way to know God, and that it is through Jesus Christ.

What if you are wrong?

(February 2, 2012 at 6:08 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: So, if I understand your argument correct, if you affirm that miracles are possible, the conversation is over.

I guess you missed the all caps "MERE MORTALS" part. Here's the paragraph again:

Quote:It goes beyond asserting that Yahweh, Jesus, angels and demons can perform miracles or work magic. Mere mortals can do the same with just enough faith.

So I trust you understand now. Do you believe that mortals can work magic?

Quote:Your evidence that miracles are ridiculous is that we do not see any miracles happening today.

...or any evidence that they ever happened at all at any time.

Quote:Well, first of all, there are many reports all over the world and throughout history of miracles occuring, supernatural healings and the like, and encounters with angels.

You just lost 30 credibility points. You're not off to a good start.

Quote:Second, it is simply fallacious to say that because you do not see any miracles today, that they couldn't have happened in the past.

I've asked you to explain WHY miracles happened like crazy back then but it's all quiet today.

Quote:Your justification for this belief seems to be that because God openly revealed Himself at that time, that He should be doing so today. This just doesn't follow. First, there was no such thing as universal communication at that time. His miracles were not witnessed by so many, and were limited to a small area. So, although He was acting openly, it was not to the entire world, but in general, only to the israelites.

I don't understand this justification at all. Why does a megalomaniacal attention-hungry god of the Bible suddenly want to hide his power? You treat this as if it's a given but actually this is a paradox that needs to be explained.

Quote:God could also have good reasons for not openly revealing His existence to the world. I would say, as you mentioned, that it is a free will issue.

A god who punishes unbelief with eternal torture can't be considered one that values "free will" much.

Quote:Obviously, God could reveal Himself to the world at any time. That He does not do so is to offer His creatures the free will to choose for or against Him without undue coercion.

Without coercion? Without coercion? I'm channeling Hitchens here. Did you really write "without undue coercion"? A religion that threatens non-belief with eternal torture isn't coercion? A religion that intrudes in all areas of life, from schools to the law isn't coercion?

Quote:This does not imply that He does not act today with supernatural intervention. As I mentioned earlier, there are millions of reports of this kind of intervention, which I am fairly sure you will dismiss out of hand.

Correct. Cough up hard evidence (not just testimony) or it's summarily dismissed as bullshit.

Quote:The point is though, with the universal and instananeous communication that we have, which could provide indisputable proof to the world that He exists, when He intervenes supernaturally it must be in ways that could not provide that sort of proof to the world.

A god that performed all manner of overt miracles in the Bible is suddenly concerned about being subtle? EXPLAIN THIS PARADOX!

Quote:As a deist, I also don't see how you can rule out supernatural intervention. Perhaps you can explain how supernatural intervention is incompatible with your deist beliefs?

My "deist beliefs" are limited to the sense of awe about the natural universe, the perception that it is a grand machine, and thus there is some sort of mysterious mind behind it, "God" for lack of a better word. God could hypothetically supernaturally intervene but MERE MORTALS CAN'T.

Quote:You use the term ECREE, yet do you have any extraordinary evidence for a deist God supernaturally creating the Universe? If not, then why do you demand it for other supernatural claims?

The Big Bang is a moment of Creation of the universe as we currently know it, whatever may have existed before that. There is a chasm of difference between speculating about whether or not there was a mind behind this event and claiming MERE MORTALS can work sorcery.

Quote:I've seen many reports from skeptics and (now) ex-atheists. How do you explain them?

Do you know how many fucking xtian assholes we get here claiming they were "atheists" ( they usually spell it wrong) until they "saw the light," or "god spoke to them," or "jesus jerked them off?" You are as phony as they are, pal.

As has been noted above, evidence or it didn't happen. You fuckers lie too much.

[quote='Minimalist' pid='234883' dateline='1328230293']

Quote:Do you know how many fucking xtian assholes we get here claiming they were "atheists" ( they usually spell it wrong) until they "saw the light," or "god spoke to them," or "jesus jerked them off?"

You forgot the most likely scenario that they were atheists until they backed a dump truck full of money onto their yard.

"I'm an atheist"

*Beep, beep, beep, beep*

*Dump*

*Pokes head out of great pile of money*

"Hallelujah! Praise Jebus! I mean Jesus! I'm a believer! Keep it coming!"