You can believe whatever you wish, I'd rather not be forced to "believe" that some person existed..personally (forced as in left with nothing else but belief). Until such time as belief is not required I'm keeping Jesus filed away with Hercules.

Herc, that great mass murderer and rapist, would make jeezy's cell time interesting. And the fuckers both got apotheosized ...

(February 9, 2012 at 5:24 am)tackattack Wrote: I define someone (or something) as evil if they do something morally wrong or bad.

Thank you tackattack. Your definition is very sensible and reasonable. It also agrees with many dictionary definitions; so all English speakers should agree with you.

Sadly there may be times when killing someone is a reasonable, moral punishment for their crime. However, I think we would ALL agree that murder of innocent people is 'doing something morally wrong or bad' - by your definition 'evil'. Thus by your own definition God is evil.

I presume you don't really need me to list out the mass murders by God or the people he killed or severely punished even though they had done nothing wrong (servants, children, townsfolk, etc)?

Oddly, I don't remember any example of Satan killing anyone. I'm told that he looks after the people who don't want to worship God, so that can't be morally wrong. Does that mean Satan is not
evil but God is evil?

(February 8, 2012 at 2:59 am)Undeceived Wrote: If you stood on the railroad tracks with your friends, and knew a train was coming but didn't have evidence, would you warn them or not?

Your 'analogy' is at best horribly vague and at worse makes absolutely no sense.

First off, you have direct observation of the state of the railway* tracks to determine whether or not trains have passed over it recently. If the track is corroded and in a visibly bad state of repair it is highly probable that the line is disused and non-operational - no train has passed there for a long time, nor will another be arriving any time soon in its current condition. And even if there was a train coming you would see it.
Second, you can rely on your other senses. Trains are big heavy and noisy and due to the massive kinetic energy involved you'd hear it a long way off and feel the rails vibrate more as it approaches. Also, if the engineer spots you trespassing on the railway he'll sound the locomotive's horn and apply the emergency brakes making even more sound that'll alert you to the oncoming train.
Third, trains unlike deities, EXIST.

*(we British invented them so we get to call them whatever the fuck we like)

Quote:And there is evidence in the forms of moral conscience, the historical and scientific accuracy of the Bible, third-party documents backing the Bible, signs of intelligent design, human psychology, logic and a number of other points.

Shut up, no there's not.

Quote:It sounds like you're having trouble grasping eternity, and so do I. It's beyond the human scope of mind. We can't expect to have the same human emotions or imperfect body we had here on earth.

If 'eternity' as a 'state' is incomprehensible then why are you continually making claims about it?

Quote:Does God exist, and if he does, is he a personal, loving God who deserves my attention?

Well you're certainly not going to speculate that your personal god doesn't give a flying fuck about you, are you now? Oh no, anything but THAT.

Quote:If we were truly honest, we’d say there is more testable/observable/demonstrative scientific evidence in favor of Jesus Christ than for evolution.

Shut up, you're done.

Quote:I listed some reasoning for God’s existence in my other response above. Is He personal and loving? Well logically He wouldn’t create us for the sole purpose of hating us and wreaking havoc.

Seriously? Are you even fucking trying any more? You make the presumption that a deity would have to feel somehow obligated to its creation and not have fun turning us all into target practice which is pretty much what the Biblical God's favourite pastime is anyway? I think you've realised your position is untenable at this point and have basically given up.

Quote:He could have dropped us all on earth, unthinking and uncommunicative, and sent a giant asteroid at us on day one. Instead, most of our lives are fairly pleasant, and the Bible (this God’s messaging device) explains why it isn’t pleasant all the time.

Bull. Fucking. Shit. There are billions people in the word who are living in poverty, without basic sanitation, lacking vital resources and starving to death as we speak. The knowledge of this inequality, this sad fact of reality, while you do nothing but continually kiss your unworthy god concept's metaphysical bum-hole and expecting others to do the same, makes my life anything BUT pleasant.

Quote:God exists, He is personal, and He lovingly sent Jesus His Son to die in place of us.

Preach preach preach. Is that all you can do!?

(February 10, 2012 at 5:04 am)Aardverk Wrote: Oddly, I don't remember any example of Satan killing anyone. I'm told that he looks after the people who don't want to worship God, so that can't be morally wrong. Does that mean Satan is not
evil but God is evil?

Well, Satan killed Job's family... with God's permission.

The tally being 10 (seven sons and three daughters)

Anybody care to take up the herculean task of getting a bodycount for the merciful other half of this little tag team?

" I have no special regard for Satan; but I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. We have none but evidence for the prosecution and yet we have rendered the verdict."-Mark Twain

(February 10, 2012 at 8:09 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Anybody care to take up the herculean task of getting a bodycount for the merciful other half of this little tag team?

I take no credit for the Herculean task but this web site says 2,476,633 are specifically identified. If you include the flood etc you get a total about 25 million killed by this all loving god.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/...-list.html

Hello Fokes, sorry I have been missing a while, busy, busy, busy, a chaotic life is part of the territory,I am not even sure I will be able to respond to any comments, it depends on what tomorrow brings.

Only 2,476,633? Mao did a lot more than that over a shorter period of time and he wasn't even trying.

The first world war, think if it could have been prevented, all those millions of lives saved. Every one of them would be dead now. Its not about the end of life, it's about how long you get and what you do with the time.

If people starving bothers, you feed them. If disease distresses you, then help find a cure. If you don't like war, stop shooting people, you may say I don't have that power or that wealth or that ability, then do what you can. Your supposed to control the governments, or is that just another absurdity.

Which neatly leads me to the topic of this post. Can bible really be interpreted as if there is no torment but you cease to exist.
Apology to any Christians who disagree with me, remember this is just my reading of the situation.

Yes, it can because Hell in the traditional sense of eternal torment, red hot poker, frying tonight. Doesn't exist, it is not in the guide it is not in the bible.

In king James and later, Hell was translated from Sheol, meaning grave or pit, Gehenna, the local rubbish dump and later during the Roman and Greek contact Hades, a belief held both the aforesaid.
Especially the lowest pit in Hades, Tartarus very familiar looking Tartarus. Don't the traditional devil look like pan grown up and lost his pipes, but who can play a mean fiddle.

The eternal punishment is death, that's it, it tells you this throughout the bible. From Adam right through. The flame is eternal, not the burning of flesh, not in Luke 16 either. Basically to use a modern word, your deleted, off the hard drive no coming back from the recycle bin.

If you are suffering in hell, you are supposed to be aware, have feelings, be just as you are now but in pain for ever, you are immortal. The bible says the sinner dies, the saved live and become immortal.
That would make God a liar, God is no liar.

Hell as and absurdity, a paradox, a part of the cosmic joke. The cosmic joke is my name for the absurdity's that continually come up as you examine various paths scientific, philosophical, religious.
Nod to the Reverend Jeremiah there, he knows what I am on about. I find that they exist because there is something you don't know, or assume, or haven't considered, some factor missing.

So why Hell, what is it why has the concept lasted so long. Good story aint it, sex, violence, colour ,fear, horror,monsters, has give birth to a thousand spin off story's. It has all the hallmarks of a efficient distraction, some thing to take your attention off what you should be observing, something to send you in a wrong direction. But who would deceive the whole world.

Before you atheists start poking fun at the Christians about this. Think! How many of you have chosen your paths because you where influenced by that story.

We poke fun at xtians because they are dumb enough to think it is real.

(February 12, 2012 at 5:07 pm)Hoptoad Wrote: Only 2,476,633? Mao did a lot more than that over a shorter period of time and he wasn't even trying.

If people starving bothers, you feed them.

1. No, you misunderstood. It was the whole of the world except for Noah and his family. In Mao's era the equivalent would have been 5 billion by God - 5,000,000,000.

2. Ah the old Commie bashing routine. It's funny how often this particular ignorance crops up on Christian forums. Mao was initially fighting the Japanese invaders and subsequently set out to re-build China and turn it into a country strong enough to stop the repeated invasions that they suffered. The Americans had their typical anti commie knee jerk reaction and instead of helping to re-build China after the second world war, they funded and supplied Chiang Kai-shek and encouraged the ensuing Chinese Civil War. The USA also stopped food aid and medical supplies being sent to China. The result - millions died. Sadly, the size of the country is a major factor here. The majority of the deaths were from starvation in some of the worst ever recorded repeated crop failures in China.

And you think that if people are starving you should send them food? So do I. So do I. Did you?

Did Mao succeed? He dragged China from the iron age into the 20th century and on to being a super power. Along the way he certainly committed atrocities but I doubt they were any worse than in many other civil wars - consider England, America, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Cuba etc. There MAY have been a more peaceful way of achieving change but at least no country has dared invade China since then. As with Vietnam, many of the deaths are clearly attributable to interference from outside - USA mainly.

(For the record, I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the communist party nor in any way a supporter of communist governments. It is a lovely idea practised well in some Christian communes but human beings are generally not capable of living up to the ideals.)