(February 10, 2012 at 12:52 am)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:I'm still waiting on your evidence that there isn't a God, as you asserted in our earlier conversation.

Your lack of evidence combined with your own fairy tales is all the evidence required. You have nothing to show for your god, the stories you lean on as the only source of information about this god are demonstrably false. If a god exists, it is not the one you've thrown your chips in with, I'm sorry for your luck.

I can see why you might not remember, it was three pages ago.... Very frustrating. If you can't follow a conversation then don't engage in one.

(February 13, 2012 at 1:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(February 10, 2012 at 12:52 am)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:I'm still waiting on your evidence that there isn't a God, as you asserted in our earlier conversation.

Your lack of evidence combined with your own fairy tales is all the evidence required. You have nothing to show for your god, the stories you lean on as the only source of information about this god are demonstrably false. If a god exists, it is not the one you've thrown your chips in with, I'm sorry for your luck.

I can see why you might not remember, it was three pages ago.... Very frustrating. If you can't follow a conversation then don't engage in one.

No, that's not all the evidence that is required. If you believe that is all the evidence is required, then I am justified in my belief that God exists on the grounds that you have no evidence for your position and that you are leaning on blind faith that He doesn't exist.

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(February 13, 2012 at 1:09 pm)Phil Wrote:

(February 13, 2012 at 1:05 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: never backed up, such as that God does not exist.

The bible god doesn't exist. That is as long as you believe logic but I'm positive you don't since you're a YEC.

Tell me, where do the laws of logic come from?

(February 13, 2012 at 1:15 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: Tell me, where do the laws of logic come from?

You tell me but if you say they come from your imaginary friend you better be prepared to show evidence or there will be a ton of derision coming your way.

(February 13, 2012 at 1:18 pm)Phil Wrote:

(February 13, 2012 at 1:15 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: Tell me, where do the laws of logic come from?

You tell me but if you say they come from your imaginary friend you better be prepared to show evidence or there will be a ton of derision coming your way.

I believe everything was created by God, I am asking where you think they come from. How do you get absolute laws in this material Universe?

(February 13, 2012 at 1:39 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: I believe everything was created by God

Where is your evidence? Actually forget evidence cause I'm gonna disprove it right now. The computer I am posting this from was built (created) by me. Your sky daddy had exactly squat to do with it. My computer (which I created) is part of "everything" therefore your belief is wrong.

Quote: I am asking where you think they come from. How do you get absolute laws in this material Universe?

Laws as in morals or as in scientific laws?

(February 13, 2012 at 1:43 pm)Phil Wrote:

(February 13, 2012 at 1:39 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: I believe everything was created by God

Where is your evidence? Actually forget evidence cause I'm gonna disprove it right now. The computer I am posting this from was built (created) by me. Your sky daddy had exactly squat to do with it. My computer (which I created) is part of "everything" therefore your belief is wrong.

Quote: I am asking where you think they come from. How do you get absolute laws in this material Universe?

Laws as in morals or as in scientific laws?

You didn't make those parts did you? Those came from a fab, and the fab came from people with ideas, materials and a labor force. Where did people come from? It all goes back to the source. Building and creating in the sense I am talking about are two different things. You didn't create anything, you just took pre-existing materials and arranged them into a computer.

I was going to say scientific laws but now I am intrigued..do you believe in an absolute moral law?

(February 13, 2012 at 11:58 am)brotherlylove Wrote: No, I can say from most of those parameters that there wouldn't be any life at all.

Because more than a few of the parameters would make the Universe absent of any structure, molecules, or existence.

And here is the best argument against any fine-tuning. If the parameters were not what they are, there wouldn't be any existence or a universe at all. Which means, the parameters could not be anything other than what they are. Which means, they are not tunable. Ergo, no fine-tuning.

(February 13, 2012 at 11:58 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Round and round we go. All of the evidence points to the Universe having a beginning. As I've shown you here:

http://www.ctc.cam.ac.uk/stephen70/talks...lenkin.pdf

All of the models which postulate an eternal Universe are fatally flawed. I've also demonstrated an eternal past is logically incoherent. You have no argument except to just assert your position over and over again.

Are you too dense to realize that they are talking about the observable universe having a beginning?

(February 13, 2012 at 11:58 am)brotherlylove Wrote: If you wish to say that, I will say that there is a God and you simply cannot know for certain.

Except, there is evidence for actual infinities. There is none for god.

(February 13, 2012 at 11:58 am)brotherlylove Wrote: What you're proposing is logically absurd; you cannot say that new past events are being added to the beginning of the series. And it still contradicts temporal becoming, which is not something you get to dismiss out of hand. The past has been actualized and is not merely potential. Time is only travelling forward and not backwards.

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New past events? Who's talking about new past events? The events being added to the past would be "new" if all the events uptil now were accounted for. They are not, since past events are infinite. We are not adding new past events, simply discovering them.

The past has been actualized and is infinite, which is why it is an actual infinite. We simply refer to it as potential because we do not know all of it - obviously, since it is infinite.

(February 13, 2012 at 1:48 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: You didn't make those parts did you? Those came from a fab, and the fab came from people with ideas, materials and a labor force. Where did people came from? It all goes back to the source. Building and creating in the sense I am talking about are two different things. You didn't create anything, you just took pre-existing materials and arranged them into a computer.

go ahead and move the goalposts. I would expect nothing less.

Quote:I was going to say scientific laws but now I am intrigued..do you believe in an absolute moral law?

Not gonna play your stupid game. If you meant scientific laws then that is what I will answer. They are the way they are because they could be no other way once the four fundamental forces took effect after the universe cooled enough. If they were any other way, you wouldn't be asking me such a silly question. Now if you want to know how the laws were formulated you have to stop thinking of "legal" laws. Scientific laws are descriptions of observations.

Do you have any interest at all in having a serious conversation? Must I seriously consider that every claim in your fairy tale be true in the direct face of all available demonstrable evidence to even begin having a conversation with you? I won't. I will not debunk your favorite forms of magic in a bulleted, point by point manner. If you would like to argue about the fabric of reality do so with someone else. I refuse to accept the only support you have to offer me is to shift the burden of proof.

Everything I know is completely, demonstrably, and fundamentally wrong. Everything any of us knows with regards to science is a terrible mistake. We're all wrong. Now, explain to me why you are right.

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(February 13, 2012 at 1:15 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: No, that's not all the evidence that is required. If you believe that is all the evidence is required, then I am justified in my belief that God exists on the grounds that you have no evidence for your position and that you are leaning on blind faith that He doesn't exist.

Quote:God has no cause. He is eternal. God was external to the Universe when He created it.

"Fairy tales,
can come true.
It can happen to you,
if you're all fucked up."