Born-Again Atheist
February 15, 2012 at 7:42 am
(This post was last modified: February 15, 2012 at 7:49 am by NoMoreFaith.)
Why am I Here? What happens when I die?
It's the central question that everyone in their life asks, and I first remember asking it at the age of 7. My parents were non-religious agnostics, they were firmly in the "I don't know; I'm busy getting on with my life to worry about it much" camp of agnosticism.
They also didn't mess about with a child asking these difficult questions. They didn't take the easy way out, they simply stated that many people believe in a heaven type place, but all we really know is that we simply aren't here anymore when we die.
It didn't go down well.
As a young child I developed a morbid fear of death, crying myself to sleep with the idea that I might die someday, that my "mum and dad" would one day no longer be here. It wasn't easy.
I went to a Church of England christian school, and become better acquainted with the christian church, and I have a vivid memory, whilst 10 years old, of arguing that if a God existed, then it made logically more sense to be malevolent, at at best, ambivalent to human existence. To the religious education teachers (who was a priest) credit, he didn't argue the point against me, and oddly enough accepted my reasoning without judgement (at least not openly). It was at that point, I probably first considered myself as beyond agnostic, but openly atheist, since nobody was willing to offer an alternative opinion that made sense.
As an adult, I understand the theistic arguments against that point of view, and I am even more impressed at the priests refusal to mystify an impressionable child with complicated counter-reasoning (and lets face it, the argument against evil gets pretty convoluted).
I'll get to the point, since nobody wants a dull autobiography. Recently I got into a conversation with a 'friend of a friend' over Facebook, who took offence at my friends joke picture poking fun at Christianity (you all know the one, Jewish zombie etc).
Well, several people took offence at this picture and said so in language that boiled down to self-censorship in case someone gets upset. Whats more, as reasonably as I could, as I didn't want my friend to suffer for my stance on the issue, I politely pointed out my reasoning why I could not consider their views as sacred and shouldn't be held on a pedestal, especially when they couldn't define exactly what it was that offended beyond "misunderstanding the bible, if you study it, you will understand why its offensive".
I've never been a militant atheist, or rather an anti-theist, thou I recognised the evils in the world, my philosophy has generally been that humans use religion to reason for conflict, but removing religion simply means people will just find another reason to fight.
Anyway, for some reason I actually found this highly irritating, not so much that they were offended, but absolutely refused to offer any REASONS to be offended, they would not argue why the quote was inaccurate. Considering I was atheist and could point out a few reasons for the quote to be inaccurate, I found this even more appalling.
What the discussion came down to was that people should study the bible to understand it properly or they shouldn't talk about it at all. Which is, to me, a preposterous statement, like stating that you should have to spend years studying Shakespeare in order to point out a plot hole in the story.
One of those friends was a religious education teacher with a degree in theology however, who despite avoiding the question, came across as a christian deist that considered the whole bible as allegorical (including new testament...
). Not sure how that works, but that's not the point. We discussed further in a good mannered message exchange which fundamentally changed how I think about atheism.
He brought up some good points, and forced me to read further, and explore some difficult concepts. He presented several arguments which, like Bertrand Russell considering the ontological argument, I could see as clearly fallacious, but couldn't pinpoint where the fallacy lies.
So I read some more, both theistic and atheistic criticisms, and started to reexamine the reasons why I am an atheist, not just agnostic, and I never even considered myself a weak atheist. In hindsight, I didn't have the philosophical tools or consideration to do so without making assumptions.
In the course of my readings I came across so many things that made me irritable at fundamentalist theology and reasoning, that it made me reexamine my views on moderate religion, which allows for people to accept things without question, the gateway without which fundamentalism could not exist.
This doesn't mean that I am now angry at moderate theism, but rather I am looking at the whole thing in a different light. Especially when my 8 year old son came home and talked about Jesus as a historical fact.. and he goes to an allegedly secular school.
To cut the long story short, my search for meaning culminated in re-affirming my naive childhood atheism, with a stronger more rounded atheism. I came to this forum, as I still have questions, and certainly enjoy engaging in discussions about philosophy and nature.
The simple fact is, I'm tired of utterly nonsensical arguments placed by the common garden theist when trying to have a serious discussion about this incredible, awe-inspiring universe we find ourselves in.
A quick note about me, I'm a father of two living in North East England, working in the lettings industry and generally get a kick out of a friendly 'argument'.
It's the central question that everyone in their life asks, and I first remember asking it at the age of 7. My parents were non-religious agnostics, they were firmly in the "I don't know; I'm busy getting on with my life to worry about it much" camp of agnosticism.
They also didn't mess about with a child asking these difficult questions. They didn't take the easy way out, they simply stated that many people believe in a heaven type place, but all we really know is that we simply aren't here anymore when we die.
It didn't go down well.
As a young child I developed a morbid fear of death, crying myself to sleep with the idea that I might die someday, that my "mum and dad" would one day no longer be here. It wasn't easy.
I went to a Church of England christian school, and become better acquainted with the christian church, and I have a vivid memory, whilst 10 years old, of arguing that if a God existed, then it made logically more sense to be malevolent, at at best, ambivalent to human existence. To the religious education teachers (who was a priest) credit, he didn't argue the point against me, and oddly enough accepted my reasoning without judgement (at least not openly). It was at that point, I probably first considered myself as beyond agnostic, but openly atheist, since nobody was willing to offer an alternative opinion that made sense.
As an adult, I understand the theistic arguments against that point of view, and I am even more impressed at the priests refusal to mystify an impressionable child with complicated counter-reasoning (and lets face it, the argument against evil gets pretty convoluted).
I'll get to the point, since nobody wants a dull autobiography. Recently I got into a conversation with a 'friend of a friend' over Facebook, who took offence at my friends joke picture poking fun at Christianity (you all know the one, Jewish zombie etc).
Well, several people took offence at this picture and said so in language that boiled down to self-censorship in case someone gets upset. Whats more, as reasonably as I could, as I didn't want my friend to suffer for my stance on the issue, I politely pointed out my reasoning why I could not consider their views as sacred and shouldn't be held on a pedestal, especially when they couldn't define exactly what it was that offended beyond "misunderstanding the bible, if you study it, you will understand why its offensive".
I've never been a militant atheist, or rather an anti-theist, thou I recognised the evils in the world, my philosophy has generally been that humans use religion to reason for conflict, but removing religion simply means people will just find another reason to fight.
Anyway, for some reason I actually found this highly irritating, not so much that they were offended, but absolutely refused to offer any REASONS to be offended, they would not argue why the quote was inaccurate. Considering I was atheist and could point out a few reasons for the quote to be inaccurate, I found this even more appalling.
What the discussion came down to was that people should study the bible to understand it properly or they shouldn't talk about it at all. Which is, to me, a preposterous statement, like stating that you should have to spend years studying Shakespeare in order to point out a plot hole in the story.
One of those friends was a religious education teacher with a degree in theology however, who despite avoiding the question, came across as a christian deist that considered the whole bible as allegorical (including new testament...
). Not sure how that works, but that's not the point. We discussed further in a good mannered message exchange which fundamentally changed how I think about atheism.He brought up some good points, and forced me to read further, and explore some difficult concepts. He presented several arguments which, like Bertrand Russell considering the ontological argument, I could see as clearly fallacious, but couldn't pinpoint where the fallacy lies.
So I read some more, both theistic and atheistic criticisms, and started to reexamine the reasons why I am an atheist, not just agnostic, and I never even considered myself a weak atheist. In hindsight, I didn't have the philosophical tools or consideration to do so without making assumptions.
In the course of my readings I came across so many things that made me irritable at fundamentalist theology and reasoning, that it made me reexamine my views on moderate religion, which allows for people to accept things without question, the gateway without which fundamentalism could not exist.
This doesn't mean that I am now angry at moderate theism, but rather I am looking at the whole thing in a different light. Especially when my 8 year old son came home and talked about Jesus as a historical fact.. and he goes to an allegedly secular school.
To cut the long story short, my search for meaning culminated in re-affirming my naive childhood atheism, with a stronger more rounded atheism. I came to this forum, as I still have questions, and certainly enjoy engaging in discussions about philosophy and nature.
The simple fact is, I'm tired of utterly nonsensical arguments placed by the common garden theist when trying to have a serious discussion about this incredible, awe-inspiring universe we find ourselves in.
A quick note about me, I'm a father of two living in North East England, working in the lettings industry and generally get a kick out of a friendly 'argument'.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
NMF
