Quote:I believe the vast majority of people have propogated religion out of conviction rather than outright lying.

The vast majority of people have had religion shoved up their asses as children and threatened with death/damnation if they doubted.

(March 19, 2012 at 10:24 pm)mediamogul Wrote: That's getting pretty misanthropic.

Admittedly, it is. Most of the time, I prefer to take the view that most who are involved in religion have lower (or different) evidentiary standards than I do. I'm also happy to "live and let live" with respect to others' beliefs to a point. However, I do not have a lot of patience for those that claim absolute knowledge of things that are demonstrably false (to a high degree of probability).

(March 19, 2012 at 10:24 pm)mediamogul Wrote: I believe that people were more easily deluded about themselves and the world back then. I think that most of the con men of religion were in some facet actual believers.

That, or they had an agenda - which was not necessarily self-serving or malevolent.

I can certainly understand why a relatively primitive culture would "fill the gaps" in their knowledge with superstition / supernatural explanations. That seems to be one constant common to all cultures. I don't understand how people of normal or better intelligence can put more value on stories and traditions from those ignorant ancient cultures over the wealth of human knowledge (I'm not using "ignorant" as a pejorative here).

Primitive cultures had a reasonable excuse. We don't.

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(March 19, 2012 at 10:29 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The vast majority of people have had religion shoved up their asses as children and threatened with death/damnation if they doubted.

So it's fraud and extortion, according to Min?

Quote:I believe the vast majority of people have propogated religion out of conviction rather than outright lying.

You may be right,but I'm agnostic on the matter due to the lack of credible evidence one way or t'other.

In this instance intent is irrelevant .Just as is for example declining to vaccine one's child due to genuine conviction. The difference is that anti-vaccination loons do far less damage than sincere religionists.


Your belief and about $5 will get you a half decent cup of coffee.

(March 19, 2012 at 10:44 pm)padraic Wrote:

Quote:I believe the vast majority of people have propogated religion out of conviction rather than outright lying.

You may be right,but I'm agnostic on the matter due to the lack of credible evidence one way or t'other.

In this instance intent is irrelevant .Just as is for example declining to vaccine one's child due to genuine conviction. The difference is that anti-vaccination loons do far less damage than sincere religionists.


Your belief and about $5 will get you a half decent cup of coffee.

At this point I must admit that it is not something I would neccessarily pose as fact. I think, as was mentioned before, that people essentially did not have the option of being non religious until very recently. It is bound to skew the data regarding beliefs they may have had. I do see much conviction these days but also many outright con men selling snake oil. L Ron Hubbard is a perfect example. You think that asshole buys his own bullshit?

(March 19, 2012 at 10:59 pm)mediamogul Wrote: L Ron Hubbard is a perfect example. You think that asshole buys his own bullshit?

Without a doubt, no, considering he's been dead for 26 years. Did he believe it when he was alive? I doubt it.

(March 19, 2012 at 11:01 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(March 19, 2012 at 10:59 pm)mediamogul Wrote: L Ron Hubbard is a perfect example. You think that asshole buys his own bullshit?

Without a doubt, no, considering he's been dead for 26 years. Did he believe it when he was alive? I doubt it.

Which is of course what I meant to say... haha.

(March 19, 2012 at 11:03 pm)mediamogul Wrote:

(March 19, 2012 at 11:01 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(March 19, 2012 at 10:59 pm)mediamogul Wrote: L Ron Hubbard is a perfect example. You think that asshole buys his own bullshit?

Without a doubt, no, considering he's been dead for 26 years. Did he believe it when he was alive? I doubt it.

Which is of course what I meant to say... haha.

Did Joseph Smith believe his bullshit? Mohammed? Any of the other so-called "prophets" (accepted by dogma or not)?

I don't know how much truth there is to it, but my dad has always claimed that L. Ron Hubbard made a bet with someone that he could start a religion and get people to follow it.

(March 20, 2012 at 1:44 am)Faith No More Wrote: I don't know how much truth there is to it, but my dad has always claimed that L. Ron Hubbard made a bet with someone that he could start a religion and get people to follow it.

Legend has it that the bet was with Robert Heinlein. I don't think there's evidence to support it - though there does seem to be plenty of anecdotal evidence regarding the claim that LRH was in it for the money.

I think its linked to a quote from about 10 years earlier where he was talking about making money.

"You know, the only way to make any money, you can't do it with pulp writing, you got to, you start a religion."

This quote appears all over the place, and in different forms, so I would be a little skeptical about its voracity, but if it were recorded and proven true, any scientologist who still believes should also be considered mentally handicapped.