Quote:1. Just punishment should fit the crime. Hell is eternal torture, the likes of which are hard for me to imagine a crime that would warrant it.

You are applying a human standard to a divine situation. But if you look at it carefully you would see that God is the lawgiver and He is the one who sets the penalties for breaking His law. The crime is rejection of His Son as savior thus the punishment does fit the crime.

Quote:2. Punishment should discourage bad behavior. Since Judgment Day comes as a surprise after our life is over, it doesn't do much to discourage bad behavior.

Yet God does punish while people are on earth so that they will come to repentance. Sadly too many humans have added in their own ideas distorting what just punishment really is.

Also, judgement day is no surprise. The Book of Revelation has told everyone it is coming thus it is up to people to make the changes prior to dying.

Quote:3. Punishment should rehabilitate. Hell is eternal. There is no chance for parole. It's only function is to torture.

Your chance to rehabilitate is done while you are alive NOT after you have died and realize that God exists. If you know the gospel message then you should do something about it right now not later when faith is not an issue.

Quote:4. The decision on who goes to Hell isn't based on how good or evil you were in life but on whether or not you joined the right religion and held the correct set of unproven metaphysical beliefs. No matter how evil you were, Christ will forgive you if you convert. No matter how good you were, Christ will condemn you if you don't convert. Therefore, Hell is not to punish wrongdoers but rather to torture wrong thinkers. This is not justice. This is a dictator tormenting non-loyal citizens.

Now you are putting your ideas upon God's decisions. The key is not how good a life you lived, it is the mere fact that you you rejected Jesus as your Savior. Paul tells us that salvation is NOT by works but by faith in Jesus. You are trying to avoid the plan of salvation and want to get to heaven your own way and that wouldn't be fair.

You have to do it God's way after all it is God's kingdom so it is God's rules that apply.

Quote:5. No moral system of justice can allow an innocent person to take the place of a guilty criminal in punishment

So you are rejecting God's way of salvation because someone else paid for your crimes? That does not seem logical. Are you saying that if someone does something nice for you like pay a bill that you would reject it because it is not moral? Of course it is moral and businesses accept payment from innocent people all the time when they are paying someone else's bill. If your thinking were correct, charities would not exist.

.

Quote:6. On earth, there is no way of knowing which Hell is the true Hell. Muslims never worry about the Christian Hell and vice versa. If life on earth is a "test", Yahweh-Allah has done a lousy job of making sure to administer the test fairly, since passing the test will depend greatly on accident of birth.

That is why it is called 'faith' and 'free choice'. There are ways to tell which one is correct, you just seem to want the easy way out. No, accident of birth does not influence the message. Allpeople are sent missionaries, pastors, believers to tell them the truth, it is not God's fault if unbelievers listening to evil try to thwart that message and cover it up.

Quote:7. If life is a "test" as Muslims and Christians alike often like to say, what is the test designed to do exactly? Normally, tests separate a population into groups according to their performance. It seems the criteria to pass this "test" is gullibility, accepting claims simply on the say-so of clerical figures. So what is Yahweh-Allah looking for? Gullible boot-licking sycophants it would seem.

Who said life is a test? Please quote a credible source for that thinking. Yet the population is seperated by the decisions they make--one is either a believer in Jesus or they are not. Allah is not God nor is he Yahweh, if you looked at Islamic history you would see that God came long before allah was mentioned and that allah needed the help of mohhomad to give him superiority. God does not need that aid.

Quote:8. If Hell is eternal, wouldn't we get used to the pain eventually? After being on fire for 200 years, wouldn't we get accustomed to the sensation? Wouldn't our eyes adjust to the darkness? No matter how bad Hell is, humans would get used to it. Conversely with Heaven, humans would soften until the bliss became part of life.

According to the Bible--No you wouldn't.

Quote:9. What are Satan's motivations exactly? Does he win if he gets enough souls? Why would he torture souls that were not loyal to Yahweh/Allah? Even if Satan’s motivation for torturing humans is revenge against Yahweh/Allah, what possible satisfaction could be achieved by torturing people that god had already turned his back on for all eternity?

1. He hates God. 2. NO. 3. See #1. 4. If you have read the Bible you will see that satan is tossed into the lake of fire along with the unbelieving humans, so he does not toture anyone nor do his minions. Their work is to deceive as many people as they can before time runs out in that way they hurt God by making Him destroy and reject the very souls He created and loves.

Quote:10. What are Yahweh-Allah's motivations exactly? If the criteria of entrance to Heaven are submission and gullibility, this suggests a highly egotistical god, if not a narcissistic one. Such a god would be expected to make regular appearances to his followers to bask in their devotion. Yet this same god hides? And this is the same god of their scriptures who regularly intervenes in overt ways? This is not a consistent, believable character.

1. He wanted to create which means you are wanted. 2. that is not the criteria for entrance to heaven. the criteria for entrance into heaven is found in John 3:16. God does NOT hide you may not believe He exists so why would He reveal Himself to you? 3. God is the same God in both the Old and NEw testaments and HE is the same God today. He doesn't change. He is very consistnet or He would not be God and humans would have no hope.

(May 3, 2012 at 5:09 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: 1. Does god cast people into hell?No. Hell is not without its pleasures - lust, greed, self-righteous anger. People follow what they most desire and resent what stands between them and their heart's desire.

"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." - John 3:19-20

2. Is there fire in hell?Bibilical references to fire symbolise the quality of our loves and the resulting benefits or harm thereof. Purification of the soul is described in Rev 3:18, Dan 12:10, Mal 3:2, Matt 3:11, Zec 13:9 and elsewhere when reference is made to love for the Lord. Elsewhere in the scriptures fire symbolizes the infernal lusts for evil that destroy the soul. See Zec 9:4, Joel 1:19, Matt 3:10, and Rev 20:14,15. Hell is filled with the burning passions of lust and rage.
3. Are all the non-believers on these forums going to hell?I don't know, nor do I care to speculate.
4. Will our souls remain in hell for eternity?No one has been in hell forever yet. Theoretically, those who remain in hell do so because they prefer the delights of hell over those of heaven.
5. How can we avoid going to hell?Love what is good and true and avoid doing evil because it is inherently wrong.

Thank you for answering my questions. Now if I could get five certified True Christians™ to verify your highly interesting take on hell that would be great.

I'll give you this Chad, you're clearly bat shit crazy, but your hell is a lot more interesting than the bible's version.

(May 3, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Cinjin Wrote: I'll give you this Chad, you're clearly bat shit crazy, but your hell is a lot more interesting than the bible's version.

Thanks, CJ!, I'll take that as a compliment.

(May 3, 2012 at 5:09 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: 4. Will our souls remain in hell for eternity?No one has been in hell forever yet. Theoretically, those who remain in hell do so because they prefer the delights of hell over those of heaven.

If that's the case I can't wait to go. I'ma sample me these delights baby.

[quote='DeeTee' pid='280935' dateline='1336085113']
[quote]1. Just punishment should fit the crime. Hell is eternal torture, the likes of which are hard for me to imagine a crime that would warrant it. [/quote]


[quote]You are applying a human standard to a divine situation. But if you look at it carefully you would see that God is the lawgiver and He is the one who sets the penalties for breaking His law. The crime is rejection of His Son as savior thus the punishment does fit the crime.[/quote]

First of all DeeTee, it is customary around here to make an introduction in the Introduction thread before you go around posting in our threads. Please do so when you get a chance. Not a huge offense - it's just polite to do so.

Now to respond to your post: We've heard this copout before ... your god doesn't have to play by the rules that he set up for mankind. It's bullshit. Furthermore, being humans we have every right to apply human standards to our own plight. Judging finite mortals infinitely is not just nor does the punishment fit the crime.

[quote]2. Punishment should discourage bad behavior. Since Judgment Day comes as a surprise after our life is over, it doesn't do much to discourage bad behavior.[/quote]

[quote]Yet God does punish while people are on earth so that they will come to repentance. Sadly too many humans have added in their own ideas distorting what just punishment really is.

Also, judgement day is no surprise. The Book of Revelation has told everyone it is coming thus it is up to people to make the changes prior to dying. [/quote]

Nope. Justice is justice is justice and you don't get the right to re-define the word when it suits your needs. It's such a tired argument. As if your god can commit genocide on a whim and simply call it just because he's all-powerful. Oh wait ... he did just that didn't he.

[quote]3. Punishment should rehabilitate. Hell is eternal. There is no chance for parole. It's only function is to torture. [/quote]

[quote]Your chance to rehabilitate is done while you are alive NOT after you have died and realize that God exists. If you know the gospel message then you should do something about it right now not later when faith is not an issue.[/quote]

What about the billions who didn't know the "gospel message?"

[quote]4. The decision on who goes to Hell isn't based on how good or evil you were in life but on whether or not you joined the right religion and held the correct set of unproven metaphysical beliefs. No matter how evil you were, Christ will forgive you if you convert. No matter how good you were, Christ will condemn you if you don't convert. Therefore, Hell is not to punish wrongdoers but rather to torture wrong thinkers. This is not justice. This is a dictator tormenting non-loyal citizens.[/quote]

[quote]Now you are putting your ideas upon God's decisions. The key is not how good a life you lived, it is the mere fact that you you rejected Jesus as your Savior. Paul tells us that salvation is NOT by works but by faith in Jesus. You are trying to avoid the plan of salvation and want to get to heaven your own way and that wouldn't be fair.

You have to do it God's way after all it is God's kingdom so it is God's rules that apply.[/quote]

You missed the whole point here. #4 had NOTHING to do with works vs. faith, it was merely pointing them out to show that god only cares about who accepts him as the one god ... it has absolutely nothing to do with anything else.

[quote]5. No moral system of justice can allow an innocent person to take the place of a guilty criminal in punishment[/quote]

[quote]So you are rejecting God's way of salvation because someone else paid for your crimes? That does not seem logical. Are you saying that if someone does something nice for you like pay a bill that you would reject it because it is not moral? Of course it is moral and businesses accept payment from innocent people all the time when they are paying someone else's bill. If your thinking were correct, charities would not exist.[/quote]

Again you miss the point. Pay more attention to whats being written. The statement was referring to god's "unique (painfully flawed) justice" not whether or not we do or do not accept it.

.[quote]6. On earth, there is no way of knowing which Hell is the true Hell. Muslims never worry about the Christian Hell and vice versa. If life on earth is a "test", Yahweh-Allah has done a lousy job of making sure to administer the test fairly, since passing the test will depend greatly on accident of birth. [/quote]

[quote]That is why it is called 'faith' and 'free choice'. There are ways to tell which one is correct, you just seem to want the easy way out. No, accident of birth does not influence the message. All people are sent missionaries, pastors, believers to tell them the truth, it is not God's fault if unbelievers listening to evil try to thwart that message and cover it up.[/quote]

Massive line of bull shit right there. That didn't even address the point that #6 was making. Also, who is "you?" -- "you just seem to want the easy way out."

[quote]7. If life is a "test" as Muslims and Christians alike often like to say, what is the test designed to do exactly? Normally, tests separate a population into groups according to their performance. It seems the criteria to pass this "test" is gullibility, accepting claims simply on the say-so of clerical figures. So what is Yahweh-Allah looking for? Gullible boot-licking sycophants it would seem. [/quote]

[quote]Who said life is a test? Please quote a credible source for that thinking. Yet the population is seperated by the decisions they make--one is either a believer in Jesus or they are not. Allah is not God nor is he Yahweh, if you looked at Islamic history you would see that God came long before allah was mentioned and that allah needed the help of mohhomad to give him superiority. God does not need that aid.[/quote]

This is whole thread to itself, so I'm going to digress on this one for another day.

[quote]8. If Hell is eternal, wouldn't we get used to the pain eventually? After being on fire for 200 years, wouldn't we get accustomed to the sensation? Wouldn't our eyes adjust to the darkness? No matter how bad Hell is, humans would get used to it. Conversely with Heaven, humans would soften until the bliss became part of life. [/quote]

[quote]According to the Bible--No you wouldn't.[/quote]

Good thing the Bible is a silly fairy tale then.

[quote]9. What are Satan's motivations exactly? Does he win if he gets enough souls? Why would he torture souls that were not loyal to Yahweh/Allah? Even if Satan’s motivation for torturing humans is revenge against Yahweh/Allah, what possible satisfaction could be achieved by torturing people that god had already turned his back on for all eternity?[/quote]

[quote]1. He hates God. 2. NO. 3. See #1. 4. If you have read the Bible you will see that satan is tossed into the lake of fire along with the unbelieving humans, so he does not toture anyone nor do his minions. Their work is to deceive as many people as they can before time runs out in that way they hurt God by making Him destroy and reject the very souls He created and loves.[/quote]

Yes, I know what Lucifer's goals supposedly are. The questions are meant to remind a person how foolish the whole plot actually is.

[quote]10. What are Yahweh-Allah's motivations exactly? If the criteria of entrance to Heaven are submission and gullibility, this suggests a highly egotistical god, if not a narcissistic one. Such a god would be expected to make regular appearances to his followers to bask in their devotion. Yet this same god hides? And this is the same god of their scriptures who regularly intervenes in overt ways? This is not a consistent, believable character. [/quote]

[quote]1. He wanted to create which means you are wanted. 2. that is not the criteria for entrance to heaven. the criteria for entrance into heaven is found in John 3:16. God does NOT hide you may not believe He exists so why would He reveal Himself to you? 3. God is the same God in both the Old and NEw testaments and HE is the same God today. He doesn't change. He is very consistnet or He would not be God and humans would have no hope.
[/quote]

Nice contradicting. On one hand, you're telling me that Satan is trying to take as many souls with him to hell as possible in order to hurt god. And yet, your god doesn't seem to give a shit since he's not even willing to "reveal himself" to save me. Seems like a pretty simple thing to do to save someone you supposedly love. And by the way god is not consistent. he is constantly changing his mind and according to you and most of the christians on this site, most humans DON'T have hope. Ask your brothers in Christ ... the majority of humans burn in hell and the uber-elite go to Heaven.

Every one of your rebuttals is a exercise in word gymnastics. Congratulations, you're like every other christian that shows up here.

(May 3, 2012 at 7:17 pm)Cinjin Wrote: Now to respond to your post: We've heard this copout before ... your god doesn't have to play by the rules that he set up for mankind. It's bullshit. Furthermore, being humans we have every right to apply human standards to our own plight. Judging finite mortals infinitely is not just nor does the punishment fit the crime. [...]

Nope. Justice is justice is justice and you don't get the right to re-define the word when it suits your needs. It's such a tired argument. As if your god can commit genocide on a whim and simply call it just because he's all-powerful. Oh wait ... he did just that didn't he. [...]

Nice contradicting. On one hand, you're telling me that Satan is trying to take as many souls with him to hell as possible in order to hurt god. And yet, your god doesn't seem to give a shit since he's not even willing to "reveal himself" to save me. Seems like a pretty simple thing to do to save someone you supposedly love. And by the way god is not consistent. he is constantly changing his mind and according to you and most of the christians on this site, most humans DON'T have hope. Ask your brothers in Christ ... the majority of humans burn in hell and the uber-elite go to Heaven.

I am just going to address the 4 bolded statements:

#1. If you heard it before and rejected it, then be forewarned. The message is not going to change just because you think it is redundant or you do not like it. The truth doesn't change.

#2. No you don't because the human idea is flawed filled with error and far from the truth.

#3. See #2. Human justice is influenced by too many factors and is very subjective. Case in point the human idea of justice in a case involving child molestation is far different than a case involving the murder of an adult.

If you want justice then you have to go by God's definition not your own.

#4. God has revealed Himself you just do not accept it. You have the Bible, the universe, the world around you, you have christians, missionaries etc. you just want to be the ruler of God and demand that HE humble Imself to meet your demands.

It doesn't work that way. You have to humble YOURSELF to God and follow HIS rules to be saved.

(May 3, 2012 at 6:45 pm)DeeTee Wrote: .

Quote:6. On earth, there is no way of knowing which Hell is the true Hell. Muslims never worry about the Christian Hell and vice versa. If life on earth is a "test", Yahweh-Allah has done a lousy job of making sure to administer the test fairly, since passing the test will depend greatly on accident of birth.

That is why it is called 'faith' and 'free choice'. There are ways to tell which one is correct, you just seem to want the easy way out. No, accident of birth does not influence the message. Allpeople are sent missionaries, pastors, believers to tell them the truth, it is not God's fault if unbelievers listening to evil try to thwart that message and cover it up.

Really, all people are sent missionaries? I guess the North Koreans aren't people then. Accident of birth does matter. Most Afghans aren't going to convert to Christianity even if they hear it's message and feel compelled by it because they live in a predominantly Muslim society that would probably have them stoned for doing so. And the chief goal of man's life is to prolong it so I really don't see how that's viable at all.

Quote:all people are sent missionaries

semantics. i will edited it to be clearer

Quote:Most Afghans aren't going to convert to Christianity even if they hear it's message and feel compelled by it because they live in a predominantly Muslim society that would probably have them stoned for doing so.

Christians have been persecuted since the 1st century AD so why would the Afghans be granted immunity from it? Jesus said--pick up thy cross and follow me. He did not promisde a rose garden and all believers will suffer some sort of persecution even in America, even within their own white families, would it be fair to have the Afghans given immunity from such acts?

---

Quote:All people are sent missionaries

I missed the editing window so just remove the words 'all people' and replace them with 'many Christians'

That should make the point clearer

(May 3, 2012 at 10:03 pm)DeeTee Wrote: #1. If you heard it before and rejected it, then be forewarned. The message is not going to change just because you think it is redundant or you do not like it. The truth doesn't change.

And you too should be "forewarned." As this statement applies equally to you. Indeed the truth does NOT change. Religions, on the other hand, come and go and your god is well-known for continually changing ... or are you still stoning children and killing homosexuals??

DeeTee Wrote:#2. No you don't because the human idea is flawed filled with error and far from the truth.

Nope. You said that it's a divine issue. Well, sorry but if you're involving the existence of the human race than it is no longer some one sided divine issue and what your god is doing is unjust (and very clearly so I might add). It's like being murdered by the mob and just before you're wacked you're told, "hey it's not personal." Well fuck that, it's personal to the guy having his brains blown out. Furthermore, your god is guilty of crimes against humanity and deserves to be hung by the neck like any genocidal dictator deserves.

DeeTee Wrote:#3. See #2. Human justice is influenced by too many factors and is very subjective. Case in point the human idea of justice in a case involving child molestation is far different than a case involving the murder of an adult.

Stupid analogy. The punishment must fit the crime. Your god supposedly created all humans with a sinful nature, than he refuses to reveal himself to those who "don't seek him" than he damns these finite mortal beings to an eternity of torture upon their deaths. You can try and dance around the definition of justice all you want. It is not just and giving your god the divine leeway to do whatever he wants is not going to sell here.

DeeTee Wrote:If you want justice then you have to go by God's definition not your own.

god doesn't have a definition of justice, he simply does whatever he wants and you say that it must be just ... simply because he did it. No thanks ... I most certainly do NOT have to use your god's definition of justice.

DeeTee Wrote:#4. God has revealed Himself you just do not accept it. You have the Bible, the universe, the world around you, you have christians, missionaries etc. you just want to be the ruler of God and demand that HE humble Imself to meet your demands.

It doesn't work that way. You have to humble YOURSELF to God and follow HIS rules to be saved.

Awesome, you contradict yourself yet again. Stating that god won't reveal himself to me because I haven't sought him out and yet now you're saying he already has revealed himself. I have the Bible and the universe and the world around me??? What does that even mean?? The muslims have the same thing and they outnumber you. The Hindus the Buddhists ... they all have the same thing. It's all accident of birth pal. If you were born in Pakistan you'd be preaching to me about Allah right now and threatening to kill me if I mocked him. Than you tell me that I want to be the ruler of god and demand that he humble himself to meet my demands. That's so very very untrue and you sir are a liar. I never even gave that impression. Your false god does NOT have to humble himself before me nor does he need to meet my demands - as I have NONE. In fact, all he need do is show himself to the entire world and I have little doubt that most of us would jump on board. You talk about following HIS rules. I think not. They're simply the ridiculous rules of uneducated bronze age goat herders, half of which are not even applicable to even christians any longer. Lets pretend for a moment that your god does exist and that "his rules" really are enforced. Than he is the most arrogant, self-absorbed unjust piece of shit that ever existed.

Quote:Indeed the truth does NOT change. Religions, on the other hand, come and go and your god is well-known for continually changing

Religions not God. The God of the Christian Bible has not changed at all. He punished Cain for murder , He punished the pre-flood world for their sin and He will punish unbelievers for their sins at the judgement.

The form may change but that doesn't mean God has.

Quote:Well, sorry but if you're involving the existence of the human race than it is no longer some one sided divine issue and what your god is doing is unjust

By whose standard are you using that God is unjust? Your own or a Mormon's? How can you declare God is unjust when your idea of justice is tainted and not superior to any other person's definition of the word? Then, if you think your version is superior to all othe rhuman's how do you justify that stance and what makes it superior? Of course, you would have to fight all those other people who think their definition of justice is superior to yours.

Quote:Furthermore, your god is guilty of crimes against humanity and deserves to be hung by the neck like any genocidal dictator deserves.

Really? Again, whose idea of 'crime' are you using? Is not God allowed to punish those who disobey? If not, then no parent is allowed to punish their children for their disobedience.

Quote:Stupid analogy

Not at all. It gets to the heart of the issue that your standard of justice changes depending upon the crime and who is involved. That is not justice or being just, that is playing favorites and being unfair.

Quote:The punishment must fit the crime

And whose idea of 'fitting the crime' shall we use? Yours? I think not. The Mormons'? The Roman Catholics'? Or the unbelievers'?

Quote:Your god supposedly created all humans with a sinful nature

Read the Bible again. You will see that that is not true.

Quote:than he refuses to reveal himself to those who "don't seek him" than he damn these finite mortal beings to an eternity of torture upon their deaths

Your words as you dismiss or ignore the fact that God has revealed Himself you just donot like HOW He did it. You want to control God instead of being His servant so your attitude problem is getting in the way.

Quote:It is not just

That is simply your opinion. You do not have anysuperior standard to use to replace it so you are angry that God has a superior way and do not like it because you cannot live your life the way you want it and still get eternal salvation.

Quote:You can try and dance around the definition of justice all you want. It is not just and giving your god the divine leeway to do whatever he wants is not going sell here.

So you speak for everyone else on this board? That is a little arrogant isn't it? Not dancing around anything, God's sense of justice outranks yours and all men's idea of what justice is.

Quote:god doesn't have a definition of justice, he simply does whatever he wants and you say that it must be just ... simply because he did it. No thanks ... I most certainly do NOT have to use your god's definition of justice.

If that were so then God could not tell humans how to behave. It would make Him a hypocrite and a sinner. God follows His own rules as exampled by the creation week. He worked 6 days and rested on the 7th. You will note that He told His followers to work 6 days and rest on the 7th. God is consistant with his own word.

Another example, Jesus was raised from the dead on the 1st day not the 7th because God is consistant with His word. God did not change the sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day with that act but showed humans He follows His own rules.

Quote:Awesome, you contradict yourself yet again. Stating that god won't reveal himself to me because I haven't sought him out and yet now you're saying he already has revealed himself.

No I didn't you just tookout context the words you wanted in order to apply your false accusation. God has revealed himself but if you do not believe it then you will not see that revelation.

Quote:I have the Bible and the universe and the world around me??? What does that even mean??

Exactly what it says. You have God revealing Himself but you choose to deny that revelation. You want God to meet your demands but God doesn't have to do that He has made the rules and your are to follow them.

Quote:The muslims have the same thing and they outnumber you. The Hindus the Buddhists ... they all have the same thing.

The majority doesn't rule in God's kingdom--God does. They do not have the same thing, if they did their lives would be conducted in a very different manner.

Quote:If you were born in Pakistan you'd be preaching to me about Allah right now and threatening to kill me if I mocked him

Only if I chose to follow Islam. You ignore free choice in al of this. You should note that muslims are not limited to the middle east and people convert to that false religion in the west even after growing up ina supposed christian influenced society.

Your argument holds no water because it implies an absolute when no absolute exists.

Quote:That's so very very untrue and you sir are a liar

.

False accusation and it will be ignored and not addressed save for this--you can't see what everyone else sees and your attitude and demands reflect exactly what I said.

Quote:Your false god does NOT have to humble himself before me nor does he need to meet my demands - as I have NONE.

You accuse me of exactly what you are doing. You do have a demand--you want God to reveal Himself in a manner that YOU want. That is a demand.

Quote:In fact, all he need do is show himself to the entire world and I have little doubt that most of us would jump on board.

Here is evidence of your lying. You just said you have no demand yet inthe very next sentence you make a demand. itis not I who lies. God has shown himself to the whole world, it is found in the Bible, in the universe, in the created creatures and humans etc. You just do not want to accept His requirements--you have to use faith.

Quote:You talk about following HIS rules. I think not. They're simply the ridiculous rules of uneducated bronze age goat herders, half of which are not even applicable to even christians any longer

There you have it. You refuse to do things God's way because you want to control God. You want Him to do things your way thatis controlling Him. YOurseem to not know anything about the writers of the Bible. Only one or two were goatherders. Moses did it for a bit but then became the friend of GOd. David did it but then went on to be King. Solomon was a king, the apostles were fishermen, tax collector, Paul was educated in the Rabbinical system, Luke was a doctor.

They were not all goatherders nor did they all live in the bronze age.
They are all applicable to Christians except some in the old testament but that is a lesson on grace which doesn't belong here.

Quote:Lets pretend for a moment that your god does exist and that "his rules" really are enforced. Than he is the most arrogant, self-absorbed unjust piece of shit that ever existed.

And you wonder why God doesn't reveal himself to you. Sorry but your arguments are undermined by your attitude and unbelief. God has made Himself obvious to His creation but since you do not believe then you will not see that revelation.