(April 24, 2012 at 8:53 pm)deciple Wrote: genkaus, thor and poetess- I gave you examples and you refuse to see it.

Uh.... you gave examples of nothing. I asked for an example where a paralyzed person was prayed for and the person got up and walked. You did not respond to this challenge. How about an instance where prayers were offered to replace a missing limb or eye and the limb or eye grew back? You know... something verifiable. My bet is that you have nothing.

Quote:Im not saying that in every case it was divine intervention but how do you know for sure that in some of the cases it wasnt?

How do you know there isn't an invisible alien named Tim running around curing random people? I'm not saying Tim is responsible for every cure that takes place, but how do you know for sure that in some cases it wasn't him?

Quote:And why does the case have to be recent to be applicable?

It doesn't. As it has already been mentioned, it just has to be verifiable. But it does seem strange that your deity hasn't had anything to say in 2,000 years.

Quote: That is the problem with alot of the proof that god has given us in general with the non believer.

What proof? THERE IS NO PROOF!

Quote: You need something recent to keep it relevant.

See above comment.

Quote:For me, I can take what happened 2000 years ago and still believe it today.

I believe the truthfulness of lots of things that happened thousands of years ago. Because there is supporting evidence. Quite unlike the crappola in your Babble.

Quote:One thing that helps me personally is that whole whole lot of people died for their testimony. All they had to do was say that they were not christian and jesus was not the messiah and they would have been pardoned from their death sentence. People will live for a lie however, people will not die for a lie.

Yeah, I've heard this lame argument before. Like no one has ever died for a lie. If you believe this, you must believe the Koran is true. People die all the time defending that pile of religious horseshit. Quite simply, people will die for a lie if they believe it to be true. Ever hear of the Crusades?

Even though it seems contrary, religion has actually promoted the preservation of life because it has been a great tool to control the masses without excessive violence (well there was still violence, but it was nothing compared to societies under communism).

(May 18, 2012 at 5:09 pm)Polaris Wrote: Even though it seems contrary, religion has actually promoted the preservation of life because it has been a great tool to control the masses without excessive violence (well there was still violence, but it was nothing compared to societies under communism).

Looks like you've never heard of the crusades then.

(May 18, 2012 at 5:10 pm)Tobie Wrote:

(May 18, 2012 at 5:09 pm)Polaris Wrote: Even though it seems contrary, religion has actually promoted the preservation of life because it has been a great tool to control the masses without excessive violence (well there was still violence, but it was nothing compared to societies under communism).

Looks like you've never heard of the crusades then.

Even when you factor the Crusades, the death toll due to religious conflict is still minimal when compared to societies that tried to succeed without it. Religion has been a great tool for keeping societies together, but maybe now in the 21st century (definitely not the 20th) we can have societies that don't need that crutch to survive.

(May 18, 2012 at 5:16 pm)Polaris Wrote:

(May 18, 2012 at 5:10 pm)Tobie Wrote: Looks like you've never heard of the crusades then.

Even when you factor the Crusades, the death toll due to religious conflict is still minimal when compared to societies that tried to succeed without it. Religion has been a great tool for keeping societies together, but maybe now in the 21st century (definitely not the 20th) we can have societies that don't need that crutch to survive.

Religion has been a great tool for oppression. Religion was not only the backer for the Crusades, but the horrors of the Dark Ages, the Witch Trials... And these are just some of the Christian ones.

(May 18, 2012 at 5:20 pm)Annik Wrote:

(May 18, 2012 at 5:16 pm)Polaris Wrote: Even when you factor the Crusades, the death toll due to religious conflict is still minimal when compared to societies that tried to succeed without it. Religion has been a great tool for keeping societies together, but maybe now in the 21st century (definitely not the 20th) we can have societies that don't need that crutch to survive.

Religion has been a great tool for oppression. Religion was not only the backer for the Crusades, but the horrors of the Dark Ages, the Witch Trials... And these are just some of the Christian ones.

Oh, and let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition.

(May 18, 2012 at 5:16 pm)Polaris Wrote:

(May 18, 2012 at 5:10 pm)Tobie Wrote: Looks like you've never heard of the crusades then.

Even when you factor the Crusades, the death toll due to religious conflict is still minimal when compared to societies that tried to succeed without it. Religion has been a great tool for keeping societies together, but maybe now in the 21st century (definitely not the 20th) we can have societies that don't need that crutch to survive.

A lot of modern wars have religion as a contributing factor. Look to the middle east, it's all Islamic Extremists. Ireland, it was Catholics vs. Protestants. Religion has been a contributing factor to many a war - mostly due to it's ability to separate otherwise similar peoples.

(May 18, 2012 at 5:22 pm)Hovik Wrote:

(May 18, 2012 at 5:20 pm)Annik Wrote: Religion has been a great tool for oppression. Religion was not only the backer for the Crusades, but the horrors of the Dark Ages, the Witch Trials... And these are just some of the Christian ones.

Oh, and let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(May 18, 2012 at 5:22 pm)Tobie Wrote:

(May 18, 2012 at 5:16 pm)Polaris Wrote: Even when you factor the Crusades, the death toll due to religious conflict is still minimal when compared to societies that tried to succeed without it. Religion has been a great tool for keeping societies together, but maybe now in the 21st century (definitely not the 20th) we can have societies that don't need that crutch to survive.

A lot of modern wars have religion as a contributing factor. Look to the middle east, it's all Islamic Extremists. Ireland, it was Catholics vs. Protestants. Religion has been a contributing factor to many a war - mostly due to it's ability to separate otherwise similar peoples.

This is extremely relevant to the situation in the Middle East, where peoples who are otherwise part of the same ethnicity are separated by religious differences. There are whole cities that get sectored by religion (Beirut used to be one of them).

(May 18, 2012 at 5:20 pm)Annik Wrote:

(May 18, 2012 at 5:16 pm)Polaris Wrote: Even when you factor the Crusades, the death toll due to religious conflict is still minimal when compared to societies that tried to succeed without it. Religion has been a great tool for keeping societies together, but maybe now in the 21st century (definitely not the 20th) we can have societies that don't need that crutch to survive.

Religion has been a great tool for oppression. Religion was not only the backer for the Crusades, but the horrors of the Dark Ages, the Witch Trials... And these are just some of the Christian ones.

Actually the Dark Ages was a time when organized religion took a back seat. The end of the Dark Ages coincided with the increase in the power of the Church and it's domination in European politics.

Salem Witch Trials? More people were just found dead along a highway in Mexico.

Religion has not been the factor except perhaps a little in Israel (mostly due to illegal land seizures in 1948). Economic stress and Western intervention are the cause of that strife.