(May 28, 2012 at 5:05 pm)Tobie Wrote:

(May 28, 2012 at 4:59 pm)Godschild Wrote: I understand clearly two things in this, you like to play with words and not be honest in your approach to this discussion, and that you are delusional in your thinking.
Yes, you're being ridiculous.
God was sorrowful for man's condition, it saddened Him that man fell so far. God's love is so intense for man, even though He knew man would fall to great depths of sin, it still saddened Him.

How is my thinking delusional? I point out a contradiction in your belief, so it is automatically delusional? If you really want to see a delusion, just pick up your fucking bible.

You have not pointed out a contradiction, all that you have managed is to play word games, like I said before omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.

(May 28, 2012 at 4:48 pm)Godschild Wrote: You and Tobie do not agree I see. Tobie believes that scripture can be changed, because he thinks God makes mistakes, and yet can still be trusted and you see if the scriptures have to be changed, God can not be trusted, I agree with you on this point.

No, I was just going off what you said to me. I simply asked you if the script can be changed and you were quite clear that it can't. Everything else I said flowed from that.

Quote:God knows every aspect of the future and you're wondering about His power, how funny. God is not constrained by what He wrote, he let us know exactly what will be

Oh okay; so the script can be changed. I see.

Quote:ie. His unchangeable will.

Wait; now it can't?

Quote:There is no need for a change the victory is already won, the victory is set for eternity. It will be Satan and all the lost that will be complaining, but to no avail, God laid it all out so no one has an excuse.

So what's the point in even trying? What's all the praying and preaching about? Your side has already won. All you have to do is sit tight, secure in the knowledge that it matters not one jot or tittle what the rest of the world says, does and thinks.

Plus if I were to play a game rigged in such a way that there wasn't even even a possibilty of my winning, and I knew that up front but chose to play anyway, I wouldn't even bother wasting my breath complaining. It would serve your side right if, come Judgement Day, Satan just shrugged and said "fuck it" and went right back to making fossils or whatever it does (what exactly does it do, anyway?)

Quote:Now you're trying to pull the bait and switch with your double talk. In one statement you say God can not be trusted if He has to change scripture, in another you say that God has no power if He can't change the scriptures. So, what is it, it can't be both, make up your mind please.

Actually I said the Bible can't be trusted if your god intended to change its mind at the last minute. Personally I think your god, like all gods, has no power to do anything at all, including exist, but that's beside the point for now. I was just musing on the paradox of an entity deemed to have all power that can only act according to a storyline that's almost literally set in stone.

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Incidentally, what's with the attitude? Regardless of your interactions with others, I've tried my best to be civil with you. It may strike you as unlikely but in my last few posts to you I was genuinely seeking information and have been genuinely interested in your opinions. If you wish me to change my approach, you have only to ask and I'll Minimalist you good.

Quote:The bible remains the worlds greatest seller, yet how well is its contents understood?

At one point the world's population believed the earth was flat and we now know how true that was.

Popularity of tradition does not equal truth, otherwise we should all be Muslim because Islam currently has the most members.

The way believers of all religions "understand" any holy book is the same way a kid fantasizes about Santa or Harry Potter.

(May 28, 2012 at 4:48 pm)Godschild Wrote: You and Tobie do not agree I see. Tobie believes that scripture can be changed, because he thinks God makes mistakes, and yet can still be trusted and you see if the scriptures have to be changed, God can not be trusted, I agree with you on this point.

Stimbo Wrote:No, I was just going off what you said to me. I simply asked you if the script can be changed and you were quite clear that it can't. Everything else I said flowed from that.

I know you were replying to what I said, however you and Tobie replied differently on changing scriptures.

Quote:

Gc Wrote:God knows every aspect of the future and you're wondering about His power, how funny. God is not constrained by what He wrote, he let us know exactly what will be

Stimbo Wrote:Oh okay; so the script can be changed. I see.

Gc Wrote:ie. His unchangeable will.

Stimbo Wrote:Wait; now it can't?

There you go manipulating what I stated by separating a single statement into two different quotes, making it seem I made contradicting statements. The two quotes you have me making above were all one thought and you know it. God's perfect will needs no changing period. God could have made the future into anything He desired, and if He had desired it differently, that's what would be in scripture, and that then would be His unchangeable will.

Gc Wrote:There is no need for a change the victory is already won, the victory is set for eternity. It will be Satan and all the lost that will be complaining, but to no avail, God laid it all out so no one has an excuse.

Stimbo Wrote:So what's the point in even trying? What's all the praying and preaching about? Your side has already won. All you have to do is sit tight, secure in the knowledge that it matters not one jot or tittle what the rest of the world says, does and thinks.

You're wrong in your thinking, even though the victory is won there is still things to be settled. People to come to salvation, preaching the gospel, so the former can happen, praying and studying scripture to learn and grow in a relationship with God, to help those who are less fortunate, care for the grieving and those who find life hopeless, ect.
Look at it like this, after WWII the victory was won, however the reconstruction for the innocent was yet to be completed, rebuilding governments, reestablishing good will between enemies and ect.

Stimbo Wrote:Plus if I were to play a game rigged in such a way that there wasn't even even a possibilty of my winning, and I knew that up front but chose to play anyway, I wouldn't even bother wasting my breath complaining. It would serve your side right if, come Judgement Day, Satan just shrugged and said "fuck it" and went right back to making fossils or whatever it does (what exactly does it do, anyway?)

Satan is out to steal away as many people as possible, he knows the games not rigged, he knows he screwed up messing with God. All he cares about is to make things as bad in God's creation as possible, and he will complain till he is thrown in hell, by an arch angel.
I'm not sure where you get Satan makes fossils, Satan's to concerned with stealing away souls to be making fossils.

Gc Wrote:Now you're trying to pull the bait and switch with your double talk. In one statement you say God can not be trusted if He has to change scripture, in another you say that God has no power if He can't change the scriptures. So, what is it, it can't be both, make up your mind please.

Stimbo Wrote:Actually I said the Bible can't be trusted if your god intended to change its mind at the last minute. Personally I think your god, like all gods, has no power to do anything at all, including exist, but that's beside the point for now. I was just musing on the paradox of an entity deemed to have all power that can only act according to a storyline that's almost literally set in stone.

You also made the statement that God is powerless if He can't change His mind. God wrote the future down for us, He sees no reason to change what He deems His perfect will. I believe you are trying to judge God by the mind of people, people just like you and me, who can not hope to conceive who God truly is other than what He reveals to us through His word and prayer.

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Stimbo Wrote:Incidentally, what's with the attitude? Regardless of your interactions with others, I've tried my best to be civil with you. It may strike you as unlikely but in my last few posts to you I was genuinely seeking information and have been genuinely interested in your opinions. If you wish me to change my approach, you have only to ask and I'll Minimalist you good.

If you find it desirable to treat me as Min would I can put you on ignore too. I'm sorry if I came across with an attitude, could be that I react to words such as in red above, it's quite irritating and seems to me as a attitude thrown at me. I would prefer to have civil discussions.

Quote:Now that is a stupid statement, being all powerful, God's plan is perfect and needs no changes,

Gen 1

Quote:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

So - perfect and all he creates the world and then sees fit to destroy it because he what? Goofed? Knew what was coming but figured "fuck it" I'll do it anyway? Or, most likely, silly people like you made this shit up and didn't really care if it made sense or not.

Quote:If you find it desirable to treat me as Min would I can put you on ignore too.

Don't worry about it, G-C. I will shit all over you in absentia for the amusement of the rest of the normal people. I regard that as victory!

I've pretty much done what I set out to do here anyway, for now, and we're running into that area in which exploring the connotations of the mythology is interpreted as a personal attack against the individual. I see nothing productive to be gained in such an atmosphere. If I can't be expected to 'judge' the god of this mythology using the mind that it supposedly gave me, then I'm not going to be able to live up to the full potential of that gift. I've set out my thoughts on this matter and the reasoning behind them, however faulty they may appear to someone steeped in the story.

@G-C: I do accept the apology you gave, maybe I read more into your responses than you intended. Whatever your opinions of me, I can actually be a nice guy (I read a book on it once).

(May 28, 2012 at 6:54 pm)Godschild Wrote: There you go manipulating what I stated by separating a single statement into two different quotes, making it seem I made contradicting statements. The two quotes you have me making above were all one thought and you know it.

Godschild, Stimbo wasn't the only one confused by that statement, "God is not constrained by what He wrote, he let us know exactly what will be ie. His unchangeable will." I was very confused by it myself. If God's will isn't "constrained" by the scripture, that means that it isn't bound by it, it isn't set in stone. Ergo, things could change. And then you go and say that it can't.

I think what you mean is that the scripture itself is not binding God's will; i.e., the scripture has no power over God. Things will play out as they are written in the scriptures, but it's not because the scriptures are some magic words that can constrain the will of God. These things are written down ahead of time because God had the courtesy to let us know what was up. Is that what you meant? What you say next seems to confirm it, particularly the bolded parts:

(May 28, 2012 at 6:54 pm)Godschild Wrote: God's perfect will needs no changing period. God could have made the future into anything He desired, and if He had desired it differently, that's what would be in scripture, and that then would be His unchangeable will.

Am I right?

However, I do still have a bone to pick with you. You claim that God's will is "unchangeable," and you seem to be one of those folks who takes the Bible literally. So ... how do you explain this?

Quote:9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

This is Exodus 32:9-14, King James Version. It's right when God got distracted from his conversation with Moses by noticing the golden calf. As you can see, he was a little miffed, was ready to smite the Israelites ... and then Moses spoke, and God changed his mind.

So is God's will unchangeable, or isn't it?

@ Morganna, you're correct in what you have determined I said, I do not express myself well in writing, sorry. I would rather sit at a table and have a discussion with others, facial expressions tells one much about a person and what they say.

As for Exodus 32:9-14, I'm surprised no one else brought up this verse.
First of all this is a moment of time that has happened, so in that God can not change His mind, the future prophecies are what's being discussed and prophecies are God's absolute will and unchangeable. God can have a will to do something and then change His mind about it, this is not His set or absolute will and it would not change the future (His absolute will).
As for the verses in Exodus, I've always seen this as a test for Moses more than God actually going to destroy His chosen people, if God had done such a thing He would have broken a promise to Abraham, and God was not going to do that. If you would read the rest of the chapter you will see God teaching Moses about anger, leadership and punishment.

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(May 28, 2012 at 7:35 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I've pretty much done what I set out to do here anyway, for now, and we're running into that area in which exploring the connotations of the mythology is interpreted as a personal attack against the individual. I see nothing productive to be gained in such an atmosphere. If I can't be expected to 'judge' the god of this mythology using the mind that it supposedly gave me, then I'm not going to be able to live up to the full potential of that gift. I've set out my thoughts on this matter and the reasoning behind them, however faulty they may appear to someone steeped in the story.

@G-C: I do accept the apology you gave, maybe I read more into your responses than you intended. Whatever your opinions of me, I can actually be a nice guy (I read a book on it once).

I've always thought we had good discussions, and I did not think of you anything but a decent person. I really hope that we can have good discussions in the future. I did not say you couldn't say what you want to about God, it's just your choice of words you and others use that can put me off at times.

(May 28, 2012 at 5:42 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(May 28, 2012 at 4:48 pm)Godschild Wrote: There is no need for a change the victory is already won, the victory is set for eternity. It will be Satan and all the lost that will be complaining, but to no avail, God laid it all out so no one has an excuse.

So what's the point in even trying? What's all the praying and preaching about? Your side has already won. All you have to do is sit tight, secure in the knowledge that it matters not one jot or tittle what the rest of the world says, does and thinks.

Tip of the hat, sir. Point, set and match to Stimbo.

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To think that God's will (if there were such a thing) could be constrained by scripture seems like total wishful thinking. Rather like the Westerner's who named the ocean near me the "Pacific".

Assuming that God has signed on the dotted line and is contractually bound to honor every point of the bible .. assumes one hell of a lot. Very circular.

"First of all this is a moment of time that has happened, so in that God can not change His mind ..."

So your god cannot go backward in time even though he is omnipresent? He sounds rather ... human.