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(June 7, 2012 at 1:10 pm)Chuck Wrote: This "Blessed Eminence" is the same catholic fuck who said it was better form the catholic point of view for a billion people to starve to death in the "extremest" agony than for just a single soul to sin in the view of the catholic church,
you stupid ignorant diluded catholic cunt.
He is called "Blessed" as he was beatified (the step below Saint), and "Eminence" as he was a Cardinal (though he wrote that sermon when he was a very young priest, and technically was never appointed to the episcopate, even as a Cardinal he was still a priest). Either way I don't have to agree with everything he says at all. This is the silliest sort of ad hominem.
That being said, he did not just say "a billion people to starve"--rather it was far more extreme than even that, that the very sun and the very moon themselves would fall out of the sky and the entire earth to fail rather than a single person to tell even a lie or to steal something without reason! (I suppose if that happened people would freeze far sooner than they would starve....) That the Church, as the Bride of Christ, should be opposed to even the slightest evils above all else.
"The Catholic Church holds it better for the sun and moon to drop from heaven, for the earth to fail, and for all the many millions on it to die of starvation in extremest agony, as far as temporal affliction goes, than that one soul, I will not say, should be lost, but should commit one single venial sin, should tell one wilful untruth, or should steal one poor farthing without excuse"
His Apologia, written a bit over 10 years before he became a Cardinal, expounds on this:
Quote:And first, the initial doctrine of the infallible teacher must be an emphatic protest against the existing state of mankind. Man had rebelled against his Maker. It was this that caused the divine interposition: and to proclaim it must be the first act of the divinely-accredited messenger. The Church must denounce rebellion as of all possible evils the greatest. She must have no terms with it; if she would be true to her Master, she must ban and anathematize it. This is the meaning of a statement of mine, which has furnished matter for one of those special accusations to which I am at present replying: I have, however, {247} no fault at all to confess in regard to it; I have nothing to withdraw, and in consequence I here deliberately repeat it. I said, "The Catholic Church holds it better for the sun and moon to drop from heaven, for the earth to fail, and for all the many millions on it to die of starvation in extremest agony, as far as temporal affliction goes, than that one soul, I will not say, should be lost, but should commit one single venial sin, should tell one wilful untruth, or should steal one poor farthing without excuse." I think the principle here enunciated to be the mere preamble in the formal credentials of the Catholic Church, as an Act of Parliament might begin with a "Whereas." It is because of the intensity of the evil which has possession of mankind, that a suitable antagonist has been provided against it; and the initial act of that divinely-commissioned power is of course to deliver her challenge and to defy the enemy. Such a preamble then gives a meaning to her position in the world, and an interpretation to her whole course of teaching and action.
In like manner she has ever put forth, with most energetic distinctness, those other great elementary truths, which either are an explanation of her mission or give a character to her work. She does not teach that human nature is irreclaimable, else wherefore should she be sent? not, that it is to be shattered and reversed, but to be extricated, purified, and restored; not, that it is a mere mass of hopeless evil, but that it has the promise upon it of great things, and even now, in its present state of disorder and excess, has a virtue and a praise proper to itself. But in the next place she knows and she preaches that such a restoration, as she aims at effecting in it, must be brought about, not simply through certain outward provisions of preaching and teaching, even though they be her own, but from an inward spiritual power or grace imparted directly from above, and of which she is the channel. She has {248} it in charge to rescue human nature from its misery, but not simply by restoring it on its own level, but by lifting it up to a higher level than its own. She recognizes in it real moral excellence though degraded, but she cannot set it free from earth except by exalting it towards heaven. It was for this end that a renovating grace was put into her hands; and therefore from the nature of the gift, as well as from the reasonableness of the case, she goes on, as a further point, to insist, that all true conversion must begin with the first springs of thought, and to teach that each individual man must be in his own person one whole and perfect temple of God, while he is also one of the living stones which build up a visible religious community. And thus the distinctions between nature and grace, and between outward and inward religion, become two further articles in what I have called the preamble of her divine commission.
Such truths as these she vigorously reiterates, and pertinaciously inflicts upon mankind; as to such she observes no half-measures, no economical reserve, no delicacy or prudence. "Ye must be born again," is the simple, direct form of words which she uses after her Divine Master; "your whole nature must be re-born, your passions, and your affections, and your aims, and your conscience, and your will, must all be bathed in a new element, and reconsecrated to your Maker,—and, the last not the least, your intellect."
Very interesting to think about though perhaps that is for another thread altogether.... Its worth noting that starving people, either through direct action or through passively failing to care for others, is also a sin within the Catholic Church (gasp!) so he's not planning on holding people hostage and starving them until people stop lying/stealing if that is what you are trying to insinuate here.
(June 7, 2012 at 1:23 pm)libalchris Wrote: You're right, it's so merciful of God to send us to eternal hell-fire and suffering than to let us get bored forever in heaven
I've heard the argument before, and let me say it made A LOT more sense in my old religion, where they didn't believe in hell, they believed that at the end of times the unsaved were killed and stayed dead. That sounds a little more merciful.
Were you a JW?
In the majority of Christianity, Hell is not a physical place that you are "sent" to. It is a self-imposed state, and, as often alluded to by the Christian visionaries as well as Scripture, the flames consume from within.
As I wrote earlier ITT, a wicked person "in Heaven" would still be very much in Hell since his heart+mind are separated from God and from all that is holy.
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began
Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning
Woe to the serpent and rescue to man.
Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead;
Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection,
Measure your aid by the depth of our need.
Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying,
Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod;
Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying,
Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.
June 7, 2012 at 2:54 pm (This post was last modified: June 7, 2012 at 2:59 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(June 7, 2012 at 1:50 pm)Aiza Wrote: His Apologia, written a bit over 10 years before he became a Cardinal, expounds on this:
[....doggrel exorcised.....]
.... Its worth noting that starving people, either through direct action or through passively failing to care for others, is also a sin within the Catholic Church (gasp!) so he's not planning on holding people hostage and starving them until people stop lying/stealing if that is what you are trying to insinuate here.
What a beloved of your pope could have been planning is hard to say. But what the pope actually implemented was for the cries of raped and violated children to be ignored, and for the excuses and alibis of their rapists and torturers indulged, and for a host of dirty and wilful untruths to be manufactured wholesale, and for the funds raised ostensibly for the poor to be paid out in hush money and shameful bribery, rather than that one tiny indignity or inconvenience be visited on the robed majesty of a man-made church or any limit set to its self-proclaimed right to be judge in its own cause.
In the majority of Christianity, Hell is not a physical place that you are "sent" to. It is a self-imposed state, and, as often alluded to by the Christian visionaries as well as Scripture, the flames consume from within.
As I wrote earlier ITT, a wicked person "in Heaven" would still be very much in Hell since his heart+mind are separated from God and from all that is holy.
Seventh day Adventist. But the point is that suffering does occur, and wouldn't a merciful god just kill the unbeliever for good?
(June 7, 2012 at 2:54 pm)Chuck Wrote: But what the pope actually implemented was.....
??? No he didn't.
(June 7, 2012 at 3:02 pm)libalchris Wrote: Seventh day Adventist. But the point is that suffering does occur, and wouldn't a merciful god just kill the unbeliever for good?
Annihilationism? I think the idea there is that "do what I want or I will kill you" is sort of a conflict with the idea of free will, making it so that the choices you have are to be holy or...nothing at all!
Mainstream Christianity has people choosing their own state of union with God.
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began
Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning
Woe to the serpent and rescue to man.
Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead;
Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection,
Measure your aid by the depth of our need.
Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying,
Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod;
Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying,
Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.
June 7, 2012 at 7:45 pm (This post was last modified: June 7, 2012 at 7:45 pm by libalchris.)
(June 7, 2012 at 6:50 pm)Aiza Wrote: Annihilationism? I think the idea there is that "do what I want or I will kill you" is sort of a conflict with the idea of free will, making it so that the choices you have are to be holy or...nothing at all!
Mainstream Christianity has people choosing their own state of union with God.
Well considering how miserable hell is supposed to be I think I'd rather choose to die, will God grant me free will if I ask to die? Or what if I choose to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord in savior in hell and repent. Where's my free will there?
Quote:Mainstream Christianity has people choosing their own state of union with God.
THAT is a barefaced lie.
Catholicism teaches access to heaven is conditional on obeying God's laws ,as interpreted by the church. One MUST obey doctrine, even against conscience.
Having the choice of obeying 'or else' is not free will, it's coercion,what psychologist call 'an approach-avoid conflict'.
(June 7, 2012 at 1:10 pm)Chuck Wrote: This "Blessed Eminence" is the same catholic fuck who said it was better form the catholic point of view for a billion people to starve to death in the "extremest" agony than for just a single soul to sin in the view of the catholic church,
you stupid ignorant diluded catholic cunt.
He is called "Blessed" as he was beatified (the step below Saint), and "Eminence" as he was a Cardinal (though he wrote that sermon when he was a very young priest, and technically was never appointed to the episcopate, even as a Cardinal he was still a priest). Either way I don't have to agree with everything he says at all. This is the silliest sort of ad hominem.
That being said, he did not just say "a billion people to starve"--rather it was far more extreme than even that, that the very sun and the very moon themselves would fall out of the sky and the entire earth to fail rather than a single person to tell even a lie or to steal something without reason! (I suppose if that happened people would freeze far sooner than they would starve....) That the Church, as the Bride of Christ, should be opposed to even the slightest evils above all else.
"The Catholic Church holds it better for the sun and moon to drop from heaven, for the earth to fail, and for all the many millions on it to die of starvation in extremest agony, as far as temporal affliction goes, than that one soul, I will not say, should be lost, but should commit one single venial sin, should tell one wilful untruth, or should steal one poor farthing without excuse"
His Apologia, written a bit over 10 years before he became a Cardinal, expounds on this:
Quote:And first, the initial doctrine of the infallible teacher must be an emphatic protest against the existing state of mankind. Man had rebelled against his Maker. It was this that caused the divine interposition: and to proclaim it must be the first act of the divinely-accredited messenger. The Church must denounce rebellion as of all possible evils the greatest. She must have no terms with it; if she would be true to her Master, she must ban and anathematize it. This is the meaning of a statement of mine, which has furnished matter for one of those special accusations to which I am at present replying: I have, however, {247} no fault at all to confess in regard to it; I have nothing to withdraw, and in consequence I here deliberately repeat it. I said, "The Catholic Church holds it better for the sun and moon to drop from heaven, for the earth to fail, and for all the many millions on it to die of starvation in extremest agony, as far as temporal affliction goes, than that one soul, I will not say, should be lost, but should commit one single venial sin, should tell one wilful untruth, or should steal one poor farthing without excuse." I think the principle here enunciated to be the mere preamble in the formal credentials of the Catholic Church, as an Act of Parliament might begin with a "Whereas." It is because of the intensity of the evil which has possession of mankind, that a suitable antagonist has been provided against it; and the initial act of that divinely-commissioned power is of course to deliver her challenge and to defy the enemy. Such a preamble then gives a meaning to her position in the world, and an interpretation to her whole course of teaching and action.
In like manner she has ever put forth, with most energetic distinctness, those other great elementary truths, which either are an explanation of her mission or give a character to her work. She does not teach that human nature is irreclaimable, else wherefore should she be sent? not, that it is to be shattered and reversed, but to be extricated, purified, and restored; not, that it is a mere mass of hopeless evil, but that it has the promise upon it of great things, and even now, in its present state of disorder and excess, has a virtue and a praise proper to itself. But in the next place she knows and she preaches that such a restoration, as she aims at effecting in it, must be brought about, not simply through certain outward provisions of preaching and teaching, even though they be her own, but from an inward spiritual power or grace imparted directly from above, and of which she is the channel. She has {248} it in charge to rescue human nature from its misery, but not simply by restoring it on its own level, but by lifting it up to a higher level than its own. She recognizes in it real moral excellence though degraded, but she cannot set it free from earth except by exalting it towards heaven. It was for this end that a renovating grace was put into her hands; and therefore from the nature of the gift, as well as from the reasonableness of the case, she goes on, as a further point, to insist, that all true conversion must begin with the first springs of thought, and to teach that each individual man must be in his own person one whole and perfect temple of God, while he is also one of the living stones which build up a visible religious community. And thus the distinctions between nature and grace, and between outward and inward religion, become two further articles in what I have called the preamble of her divine commission.
Such truths as these she vigorously reiterates, and pertinaciously inflicts upon mankind; as to such she observes no half-measures, no economical reserve, no delicacy or prudence. "Ye must be born again," is the simple, direct form of words which she uses after her Divine Master; "your whole nature must be re-born, your passions, and your affections, and your aims, and your conscience, and your will, must all be bathed in a new element, and reconsecrated to your Maker,—and, the last not the least, your intellect."
Very interesting to think about though perhaps that is for another thread altogether.... Its worth noting that starving people, either through direct action or through passively failing to care for others, is also a sin within the Catholic Church (gasp!) so he's not planning on holding people hostage and starving them until people stop lying/stealing if that is what you are trying to insinuate here.
(June 7, 2012 at 1:23 pm)libalchris Wrote: You're right, it's so merciful of God to send us to eternal hell-fire and suffering than to let us get bored forever in heaven
I've heard the argument before, and let me say it made A LOT more sense in my old religion, where they didn't believe in hell, they believed that at the end of times the unsaved were killed and stayed dead. That sounds a little more merciful.
Were you a JW?
In the majority of Christianity, Hell is not a physical place that you are "sent" to. It is a self-imposed state, and, as often alluded to by the Christian visionaries as well as Scripture, the flames consume from within.
As I wrote earlier ITT, a wicked person "in Heaven" would still be very much in Hell since his heart+mind are separated from God and from all that is holy.
Brainwashed. Utterly, utterly brainwashed.
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
Its worth noting that starving people, either through direct action or through passively failing to care for others, is also a sin within the Catholic Church (gasp!) so he's not planning on holding people hostage and starving them until people stop lying/stealing if that is what you are trying to insinuate here. 
![[Image: hypocrite.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i4.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy108%2Frschilla%2Fhypocrite.jpg)
