My Situation

I still haven't told a single friend face-to-face that I don't believe in God anymore. My reasons for this are pretty simple (or they used to be) and they're basically to do with the arguments that would inevitably follow about what the truth is. I don't want to engage in arguments with the people that I enjoy being with, but at the same time I want to start living and acting the way I actually see fit which I obviously can't without them noticing that I've changed.

I have started to think ahead in order to somewhat predict what would happen if I told everyone 100% that I have no faith and my reasons why. As the title of this thread suggests, I fear there is only one possible future and I have the gut feeling that it is also morally bad on my part. I'll explain further in hopes that you guys might be able to enlighten me on this thought. Maybe it can't be seen as entirely morally bad.

Possible Futures

If I sat down a friend and honestly told him I actually don't believe in God, I'm 100% confident that we won't simply get up and leave it at that. I'm sure that they will feel obliged to convince me to have faith again. So assuming that this is what would happen, let's fast-track to the end of the discussion at what the possible futures might be.

-I have been convinced-

I acknowledge this could be a possibility. Two things to consider here.

1. I'm okay with this because as a free thinker I naturally accept that any idea or claim can have truth to it. I just need the logical reasons for then believing it is in fact true.
   
2. A bit of a side note, but I have heard most of the apologetic arguments and definitely a lot more arguments against Christianity and the refutations to most apologetic arguments. I don't believe that their chances of converting me are very high at all.
   

This possible future can be seen as the morally good one overall because I implicitly gave my consent to be swayed by initiating the discussion. There wouldn't be anything wrong here between the two of us morally.

-I have (somewhat) convinced them-

Knowing the reasons for why I left, I know what it would take for me to convert back, and so far these reasons haven't been close to being refuted. With that said, I believe the most likely outcome will be this one where I have severely left them doubting, if not, deconverted. I'm almost confident that that is what would happen because I know they haven't been exposed to even the possible ideas about why Christianity might be wrong. These are things that we all see as the standard arguments here on forums (e.g. a Biblical Jesus most likely non-existent). So I believe on their first hearing of such reasons why I have no faith, there will be severe damage done.

This possible future seems like the one that is most likely and I fear that the repercussions will be very bad. I see it as morally bad because I know that some of my friends have horrific pasts and they need faith as a sort of cure. Regardless of whether Christianity is true or not, taking this away from them would do some brutal mental damage and irreparable scarring which I would be responsible for.


Where does this leave me? I don't think it's greedy of me to want to live the way I see fit now and act upon my true beliefs, but how can that be done without being immoral? Can it be said that taking away someone's faith is an immoral act?

I doubt that what you believe would shake your friends faith. Even if you had very convincing arguments that's not how faith works.they will continue to believe no matter what.

(June 17, 2012 at 6:17 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: I doubt that what you believe would shake your friends faith. Even if you had very convincing arguments that's not how faith works.they will continue to believe no matter what.

What will shake their faith is why I don't believe anymore.

You're partly right. I think some might keep doing what they're doing but there's definitely others that would look into what I've said and basically start digging their graves. These are the ones that I fear for.

All I can tell you is what I'd do.

They're friends, not children - I'd live the way I want to. Friendships go both ways. If you're having to worrying about whether your beliefs are going to cause someone to go off the deep end, that, to me, isn't fair. It's unfortunate they've had bad lives, but so have a lot of people, atheists included. There's counselling and techniques available if your revelation shocks them so. I think you do them a disservice by assuming they're not able cope with some false hope. But I'm no expert, so maybe your assessment is right.

And this doesn't mean I'm advocating a cold, "you're on your own approach" - after all, if they do become atheists, you're there for them, right? Grief passes, and their belief in god will never undo the tragedies of their past. The fastest road to health, in my opinion, is to know your weaknesses, to know what's true, to know what's working and what isn't.

Personally, I think you're over-estimating the chances of them becoming atheists any time soon. People's deconversions take a long time, usually beginning imperceptibly. I think the youtuber 'Evid3nc3' got it right when he said we often assume the final piece in our personal puzzle, that one moment where everything 'clicked' for us, is the silver bullet which destroys (or heavily wounds, at least) faith. We forget the myriad of experiences and reasons, sometimes non-rational, that lead up to that moment. I can understand they'll have questions for you, but would it really be necessary for you to lay out your entire path of deconversion?

(June 17, 2012 at 5:55 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Regardless of whether Christianity is true or not, taking this away from them would do some brutal mental damage and irreparable scarring which I would be responsible for.

The mental damage and irreparable scarring has already been done in their pasts. False beliefs won't change that. While I do think you should use tact, I don't think you should feel guilty about being who you are. That's bullshit. You're their friend, and you're there to help them if they need it. You're not there to be someone else to make them feel better. Unless they're terminally ill they'll have time to get over things. Once again, they're not infants.

@ FallentoReason, I believe that your greatest fear is that they will show you that you're the one that's on the wrong track. This tells me you're insecure in your unbelief. You are afraid that God is so strong in their lives, none of them will deconvert and cause you to pause and think about where you are in your life. It's unfair not to tell them, you are being deceitful with those you call friends, I think you know how strong their faith is and you're scared of that kind of strength.

(June 18, 2012 at 3:51 am)Godschild Wrote: @ FallentoReason, I believe that your greatest fear is that they will show you that you're the one that's on the wrong track. This tells me you're insecure in your unbelief. You are afraid that God is so strong in their lives, none of them will deconvert and cause you to pause and think about where you are in your life. It's unfair not to tell them, you are being deceitful with those you call friends, I think you know how strong their faith is and you're scared of that kind of strength.

The fuck is peer pressure?

Tempus Wrote:Personally, I think you're over-estimating the chances of them becoming atheists any time soon. People's deconversions take a long time, usually beginning imperceptibly. I think the youtuber 'Evid3nc3' got it right when he said we often assume the final piece in our personal puzzle, that one moment where everything 'clicked' for us, is the silver bullet which destroys (or heavily wounds, at least) faith. We forget the myriad of experiences and reasons, sometimes non-rational, that lead up to that moment. I can understand they'll have questions for you, but would it really be necessary for you to lay out your entire path of deconversion?

I've seen some of that guy's video and I'd say his analysis is spot on. The problem with my friends is that I am somehow a part/able to comment on most of those different areas that make their faith work. And because we're friends I'm sure they won't hold back and they'll most likely tap into those different sections as a means to bring me back around.

The issue here is that potentially we could go into every little detail and I could give them every last reason why I can't see any reason to believe again. I'm thinking the best thing to do is compromise and make myself look partially stupid i.e. don't bring out some of the reasons for their sake. i highly doubt that then they'll leave it there if I've left intentional holes in my reasoning...

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(June 18, 2012 at 3:51 am)Godschild Wrote: @ FallentoReason, I believe that your greatest fear is that they will show you that you're the one that's on the wrong track. This tells me you're insecure in your unbelief. You are afraid that God is so strong in their lives, none of them will deconvert and cause you to pause and think about where you are in your life. It's unfair not to tell them, you are being deceitful with those you call friends, I think you know how strong their faith is and you're scared of that kind of strength.

In all honesty, I'm not out to deconvert. The reason why I'm more apathetic online is because by you theists signing up to this forum you've essentially given me the consent to speak my mind infront of you. Whether that affects you is for you to worry about quite honestly. When it comes to real life friends, they haven't asked for such treatment. Above all though, I know my friendships will be affected through the most-likely negative discussions that will follow.

As for being 'scared' of their strong faith... I've already stated and implied that my ultimate goal in life is to live by reason. If they provide the reasons for why I'm wrong and Christianity right, then so be it. I don't have a problem with that outcome.

(June 18, 2012 at 3:51 am)Godschild Wrote: @ FallentoReason, I believe that your greatest fear is that they will show you that you're the one that's on the wrong track. This tells me you're insecure in your unbelief. You are afraid that God is so strong in their lives, none of them will deconvert and cause you to pause and think about where you are in your life. It's unfair not to tell them, you are being deceitful with those you call friends, I think you know how strong their faith is and you're scared of that kind of strength.

Or could it be that he knows that he will lose some friends who will choose god (invisible, made up being) over himself (material, real being)? I think that much more likely.

(June 18, 2012 at 4:52 am)Norfolk And Chance Wrote:

(June 18, 2012 at 3:51 am)Godschild Wrote: @ FallentoReason, I believe that your greatest fear is that they will show you that you're the one that's on the wrong track. This tells me you're insecure in your unbelief. You are afraid that God is so strong in their lives, none of them will deconvert and cause you to pause and think about where you are in your life. It's unfair not to tell them, you are being deceitful with those you call friends, I think you know how strong their faith is and you're scared of that kind of strength.

Or could it be that he knows that he will lose some friends who will choose god (invisible, made up being) over himself (material, real being)? I think that much more likely.

I know for sure that with some people it will definitely alter our friendship and I'll be seen as a 'bad influence' from then on...

(June 18, 2012 at 5:45 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I know for sure that with some people it will definitely alter our friendship and I'll be seen as a 'bad influence' from then on...

And THIS is why you must never re-convert, even if you want to, even if you talk yourself into believing the "evidence" - the brutal truth is that some people would rather deal in fantasy than reality. The brutal truth is some people will shun you or change their friendship dynamic with you because they will choose an invisible, unproven, immaterial, non existent being ahead of you, a self evident, physical, material, REAL being.

This is I find absolutely disgusting and OUTRAGEOUS, and it happens the world over.

Disgusting, sick in the head, deluded, theistic fuckheads. They need stopping, religion needs crushing. Damn right I'm getting fucking militant over it.