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Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)
#1
Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)
So I’m thinking about this today. Don’t know why but here it goes.

So someone said to me the other day that because I’m an atheist, I’ve got no humility. I must think I’m all powerful and have no morals because I’m not humbled by any power greater than myself. Because I believe in evolution and not creation then I must believe the world must have no intelligence to its design. I must see no meaning in life and I must not see the good in the world. Ha, how wrong could you be?

I want to start with this common misconception. Now I can’t speak for all atheists but I certainly do believe in a power greater than myself. I believe in many powers greater than myself. Anyone who is a believer in science must believe in higher powers. A supernova? Definitely more powerful than me. A black hole? Far more powerful than me. Maybe closer to home, the best example is the sun. I can’t control the sun, but it certainly controls me. It controls all of us. If it ceased to exist we’d all die. I am a speck on this planet, and this planet is a speck in the universe. I’d be foolish to think I am the greatest power there is. But I don’t need to believe in God to know that is true.

Whether or not there is intelligence in the design of our world is a redundant question. The universe is a series of systems. It works because it does, because if it didn’t work there’d be nothing. Why it is the way it is is irrelevant as well, because if the rules of the universe weren’t what they were then they’d be different, but there would still be rules because rules are why things work. To everything there is a rule of how and why it is, otherwise there would be utter chaos. That’s how it goes. I see evolution as proof of this. It makes sense that beings who adapt would outlast those that don’t. It works with the rules. To say that someone just made everything the way it is and that it works by default is, amongst things, a cop-out. It ignores the cyclical nature of the world, that things change over time. If all was the way God wanted it to be, then nothing would ever change.

In fact, faith and religion are, and always have been, tools. Tools to explain things without having to do the work. Faith tells us what makes the world turn and what happens when we die, religion permits control. The truth is, as we have proven, it is not God who turns the world but gravity and momentum. We invent God for ourselves because we as people doubt ourselves, because we know we are weak in the grander scheme and so we create someone who shares our motives yet has all the power of the cosmos. This isn’t inherently bad, just generally ignorant on our behalf. Besides, faith bothers me the least because it’s personal. One’s faith is internal. God was created to assuage our own fears, but like many tools of great power it has been exploited and abused, because it was integrated into religion. Religion is the real enemy.

You see religion is not what you believe. It’s how you believe it. It’s how you make others believe it, the “I believe this and so you will do this” kind of mentality. It’s how you get a congregation under one roof and get them to chant and sing and kneel and pray, yes, but it’s also how you fill their heads with nonsense like “Jesus said this and God hates that and therefore you will do this and that and drop a dollar in the tray on your way out.” No, my issue is not with faith per se. It’s the organized religions that empower those who pay up. It’s organized religions that demean the rights of women, the LGBT community, those who don’t believe etc. It is they who cover up things like child abuse and murder, who discourage the use of contraceptives in AIDS-ridden countries, and most despicable of all, try to govern the use of the human body. For the record, I am not just attacking Christianity here. I include all of them. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism etc.

God has become a scare tactic. A reason to instill the fear of hell and damnation so that people could be controlled and made to serve not the interests of God, but the interests of so-called “Men of God.” The Christian church often uses the metaphor of the shepherd and his sheep, and this is truly a perfect analogy. Does a shepherd not ask his sheep to round themselves up? Or does he scare them into formation by subjecting them to a loud beast with teeth? It’s very much the same with religion, with any religion. Do what we say or burn for eternity. Well shit, if I’d had that ground into my psyche as a child I’d certainly bend over backwards for them. People don’t lash out at others because of faith. They do it because of religion, because of fear, and because the men at the top don’t want to lose their cash cows. Galileo wasn’t imprisoned because he was offending the faithful, he was imprisoned because he was a threat to the power of the church. It’s all about force, all about submission. Funny that the word “islam” means exactly that: submission.

So why is it that I, the one who believes in what has been proven, in what has been learned, must be subject to ridicule? I cannot run for office in six U.S. states because I am an atheist. And yet, we put our full trust in that which has undoubtedly been simply made up. That’s right, I said it was simply made up. You see if you compare the various stories of western religion, you’ll find them to be mostly similar with differing characters (as compared to the vastly different classic religions, which also were quite similar amongst themselves). Many say it’s just because different people came to the same God in different ways, therefore no matter what his name he must be real. Yet it’s more likely just cultural diffusion. The proof is in far-eastern religion. It all evolved in a world untouched by the west until about 300-400 years ago. If everyone came to the same God in different ways, you’d think they’d be similar to those of the west, but they are not. They are vastly different. I’m not going to go into what this proves, it’s self-explanatory. Besides, it wouldn’t make any difference, because you can’t get the “true believers” to understand. They’ve been fed too many ways to renounce their reason which they just regurgitate in denial every time they’re faced with the truth.

The worst part of it all is that I must be “wrong.” If we’re all entitled to our beliefs, why must I be “wrong.” Why am I the one who is portrayed as a threat? I am not the one knocking on your door to bother you with my beliefs. I am not the one coming to your campus to incite a riot. Why is it that I who believe in science and knowledge and facts must be wrong and they who believe in mysticism and supernatural power and divine intervention be right? Where is the logic here? Because I am an atheist I am called immoral and doubtful. I do believe in a difference between right and wrong. I believe that we must do right by each other because it is the only way for us a species to progress. I am doubtful of the things I have deemed worth doubting, and for everything I doubt there are many things I don’t. For example, I do not doubt that the Earth revolves around the sun. I do not doubt that gravity keeps me on the ground. I do not doubt my mortality. To be labeled these things is absolutely insulting, and what’s worse is that if I were to say this about the faithful, I’d be vilified. Again, I beg to know where the logic is. Where is the reason?

Or have we renounced it?
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#2
RE: Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)
Quote:So someone said to me the other day that because I’m an atheist, I’ve got no humility.


Pretty funny from some lunatic who thinks he has an invisible sky-daddy looking out for him.

"Go Fuck Yourself" would be perfectly appropriate at that point in time.
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#3
RE: Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)
I love when theists, who believe the creator of the universe has bestowed upon them the special knowledge that will allow them to spend eternity with him, claims that atheists are the ones lacking humility.

Am I the only one that sees the irony?

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#4
RE: Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)
(July 7, 2012 at 2:56 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: I love when theists, who believe the creator of the universe has bestowed upon them the special knowledge that will allow them to spend eternity with him, claims that atheists are the ones lacking humility.

Am I the only one that sees the irony?

Certainly not. The idea that in this whole infinite universe there is an omnipotent being who wants a special and personal relationship with you is beyond self-centered. It puts each and every believer at the very center of the universe (when in fact there may not even be a center of the universe).

It's funny though. While many atheists are derided for being "callous" and "inflammatory" and my all-time favorite "offensive", the terms "high and mighty" and "holier than thou" definitely do not apply to us. I mean sure we may get a bit aggressive when provoked by religious jargon, but at least we're up front and honest about it. I've never seen a passive aggressive atheist, but I've often been verbally flipped off with an "I'll pray for you."
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#5
RE: Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)
Quote:So someone said to me the other day that because I’m an atheist, I’ve got no humility


So what? Ad hominem AND Strawman fallacy; that does not invalidate the atheist position.

Tell it to go away and perhaps come back when it has grasped the basics of critical thinking.

I try not to argue with presuppositional* apologists ; I find them intellectually dishonest and often rather ignorant.

*a person who argues from a fixed premise,unwilling to even entertain the possibility of error. Most often theists,but I have also run across hard atheists just as bloody minded--not to mention people who defend a specific political party..

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

IF you insist on arguing with those dropkicks,I suggest familiarise yourself with some of the more common logical fallacies used by theists.

These include:

Ad Hominem attacks

Stawman fallacy

No true Scotsman

Tu quoque/appeal to hypocrisy


Appeal to authority; EG citing the bible as evidence.

Argument by consensus.

Moving the burden of proof "you can't prove it's NOT true" (they make the claim, the burden of proof is theirs)


The Wiki article below is a good place to start. However,it's worth keeping in in mind
Quote:If you could reason with religious people,there wouldn't be any (Greg House)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacies
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#6
RE: Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)



All ideologies have self-serving myths and narratives which serve to insulate and isolate people within ideological communities, and to fold them back inside. Yours is no different.

I do find it interesting that you at first say that all religions, east and west, are alike. Then in order to prove a different point, you assert the exact opposite, that the difference between eastern and western religion demonstrates that they cannot have the same ultimate aim or foundation.

"Queer and mysterious, Mr. Frodo."

[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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#7
RE: Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)
(July 7, 2012 at 10:22 pm)apophenia Wrote:


All ideologies have self-serving myths and narratives which serve to insulate and isolate people within ideological communities, and to fold them back inside. Yours is no different.

I do find it interesting that you at first say that all religions, east and west, are alike. Then in order to prove a different point, you assert the exact opposite, that the difference between eastern and western religion demonstrates that they cannot have the same ultimate aim or foundation.

"Queer and mysterious, Mr. Frodo."


I never said all the religions were alike, I simply clarified that I wasn't talking solely about christianity. Any likeness between them is based on earthly actions and policies. The differences are mythology based.
You really believe in a man who has helped to save the world twice, with the power to change his physical appearance? An alien who travels though time and space--in a police box?!? [Image: TARDIS.gif]
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#8
RE: Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)
Quote:So what? Ad hominem AND Strawman fallacy; that does not invalidate the atheist position.

Well, consider the following argument:

1) Being a reasonable person entails exhibiting a certain, proper amount of humility about what we can know.
2) Atheism necessarily entails exhibiting an improper amount of humility about what we can know.
3) Therefore, atheism entails not being a reasonable person.

This argument is valid.

It seems to me that under this kind of an argument, asserting that atheism necessarily entails a lack of humility could be both not ad hominem and not a strawman/red herring.

Quote:The universe is a series of systems. It works because it does, because if it didn’t work there’d be nothing. Why it is the way it is is irrelevant as well, because if the rules of the universe weren’t what they were then they’d be different, but there would still be rules because rules are why things work. To everything there is a rule of how and why it is, otherwise there would be utter chaos. That’s how it goes. I see evolution as proof of this. It makes sense that beings who adapt would outlast those that don’t. It works with the rules. To say that someone just made everything the way it is and that it works by default is, amongst things, a cop-out. It ignores the cyclical nature of the world, that things change over time. If all was the way God wanted it to be, then nothing would ever change.

These all seem like axiomatic articles of faith, to me. What a priori reason is there to believe that they are true?

(July 7, 2012 at 2:17 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Pretty funny from some lunatic who thinks he has an invisible sky-daddy looking out for him.

"Go Fuck Yourself" would be perfectly appropriate at that point in time.

Right, because disagreeing with you about the existence of God requires lunacy.

...and you wonder why people sometimes accuse atheists of lacking proper epistemic humility?
“The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.”
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#9
RE: Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)
(July 8, 2012 at 3:46 am)CliveStaples Wrote: These all seem like axiomatic articles of faith, to me. What a priori reason is there to believe that they are true?


Simply because this is what we've learned through our constant study, observation, and evaluation. It wasn't passed down to us in a book and told to us a truth verbatim. It is questioned, it evolves.

Perhaps, yes I can call science my faith. It is not a religion, it is not a philosophy, it doesn't necessarily govern my choices. But I have faith that it is the truth, much as you have faith that there is a god in control of it all.
You really believe in a man who has helped to save the world twice, with the power to change his physical appearance? An alien who travels though time and space--in a police box?!? [Image: TARDIS.gif]
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#10
RE: Thoughts on Atheism (and a plea to the religious)
(July 8, 2012 at 4:09 am)KnockEmOuttt Wrote: Simply because this is what we've learned through our constant study, observation, and evaluation. It wasn't passed down to us in a book and told to us a truth verbatim. It is questioned, it evolves.

But you didn't learn it through study. The fact that you think you can observe things is itself an axiomatic article of faith. The process by which you evaluate your observations requires axiomatic articles of faith (about the proper way to evaluate things).

This does not seem markedly different from a theistic epistemology.

Quote:Perhaps, yes I can call science my faith. It is not a religion, it is not a philosophy, it doesn't necessarily govern my choices. But I have faith that it is the truth, much as you have faith that there is a god in control of it all.

On what basis do you reject faith in God, but accept faith in 'science'?

That's not a gotcha question, I'm actually interested in knowing.
“The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.”
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