(July 14, 2012 at 8:12 pm)Gambit Wrote: Science doesn't put faith in it's methods until they are proven to work. Even then there is always room for reevaluation, improvements or complete reworking of previous models. This has been said time and time again, but religious faith affords truth no such luxury. Instead it manipulates the facts to fit with the original assertions. It goes back to my previous answer to you - if the first assertion/premise/preposition fails, then everything else falls down. Science doesn't work in the same way.

Gambit: what you refer to is not faith but confirmed confidence. Never allow such disingenuous equivocations to get past you..

---

Have not all of these horseshit assertions been demolished at least a dozen times each, just this week?

spockrates Wrote:I suppose such would suggest at least two possibilities:

1. The events of Jesus life were deliberately fabricated
2. The events of Jesus life were remarkably predicted

How would we determine which of the two are true?

This is why I clarified I wasn't talking about prophecy, to eliminate #2. I can show you where in the OT the author of Mark got the material for the part about Jesus and the fig tree. This isn't any sort of prediction but a trivial bit of 'history'.

Therefore, answering your question, to me it's almost undeniable that it's a fabrication.

---

spockrates Wrote:Reguarding the first alternative, I'd like to ask how you, or I believe anything about the life and death of any historical figure. Julius Caesar, for example--is there anything historians tell us about him that it is reasonable to believe? Or is all ancient history unbelievable?

Julius Caesar left an entire empire behind. There's material things like coins and statues that can be shown are related to him.

(July 14, 2012 at 8:19 pm)jonb Wrote:

(July 14, 2012 at 7:57 pm)spockrates Wrote: God said:

27 and three quarters: And verily Big ears spoke unto nody 'dust thou have the clap?'
'Oh great one I have lain with the elves, and it be swollen, and of great proportion' The blue hatted one replied.
'Well get yourself unto the sore bones' he spaketh
28.7840$$1 And he did taketh himself unto the clinic, and was cured. Verily Big ears had spoken the truth unto him. The virgins rejoiced to see such fun and  the dish ran away with the spoon.

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

(Matthew 19)

Jesus had an appreciation for the absurd, too. And the courage to poke fun at the wealthy and powerful. Don't you think?

---

(July 14, 2012 at 8:27 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

spockrates Wrote:I suppose such would suggest at least two possibilities:

1. The events of Jesus life were deliberately fabricated
2. The events of Jesus life were remarkably predicted

How would we determine which of the two are true?

This is why I clarified I wasn't talking about prophecy, to eliminate #2. I can show you where in the OT the author of Mark got the material for the part about Jesus and the fig tree. This isn't any sort of prediction but a trivial bit of 'history'.

Therefore, answering your question, to me it's almost undeniable that it's a fabrication.

---

spockrates Wrote:Reguarding the first alternative, I'd like to ask how you, or I believe anything about the life and death of any historical figure. Julius Caesar, for example--is there anything historians tell us about him that it is reasonable to believe? Or is all ancient history unbelievable?

Julius Caesar left an entire empire behind. There's material things like coins and statues that can be shown are related to him.

I believe there are more statues and mosaics and other ancient reminders of Christ than their are of Caesar. But these aside, what other evidence do we accept of Julius Caesar? How do we know the details of the specific events of his life--what he said and what he did? For example, how do we know why he decided to cross the river and march his army on Rome?

1. How do you know Moses even existed?
2. How do you know he wasn't lying?
3. How did Moses know it wasn't Satan pretending to be god?

I think your problem is that you presume and suppose too much.

Prove jesus even existed, and then maybe your question will be valid in some small way.

(July 14, 2012 at 8:30 pm)spockrates Wrote: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

(Matthew 19)

But the rich, they got huge blenders and liquidized camels and squirted them with fine jets through the eyes of needles, so they're all coming up now.

spockrates Wrote:I believe there are more statues and mosaics and other ancient reminders of Christ than their are of Caesar. But these aside, what other evidence do we accept of Julius Caesar?

Yes, this is very true. How do you explain the coins though? Can't it actually be argued that the romans started the whole face-of-emperor-on-coin thing? On top of this, Caesar actually wrote stuff himself and even contemporaries such as Sallust wrote about him. That's already 2 up on Jesus... 2 areas that Jesus, Son of the Almighty Father, really struggled with.

(July 14, 2012 at 8:27 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

spockrates Wrote:I suppose such would suggest at least two possibilities:

1. The events of Jesus life were deliberately fabricated
2. The events of Jesus life were remarkably predicted

How would we determine which of the two are true?

This is why I clarified I wasn't talking about prophecy, to eliminate #2. I can show you where in the OT the author of Mark got the material for the part about Jesus and the fig tree. This isn't any sort of prediction but a trivial bit of 'history'.

Therefore, answering your question, to me it's almost undeniable that it's a fabrication.

I'm listening. Please explain why it's undeniable.

---

(July 14, 2012 at 8:41 pm)KnockEmOuttt Wrote:

(July 14, 2012 at 8:30 pm)spockrates Wrote: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

(Matthew 19)

But the rich, they got huge blenders and liquidized camels and squirted them with fine jets through the eyes of needles, so they're all coming up now.

So that's what Jesus meant when he chastised them, saying:

"You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel."

(Matthew 23)

Camel smoothies--yum!

(July 14, 2012 at 8:30 pm)spockrates Wrote: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

(Matthew 19)

Jesus had an appreciation for the absurd, too. And the courage to poke fun at the wealthy and powerful. Don't you think?

I don't know. You own a computer.

Quote:I believe there are more statues and mosaics and other ancient reminders of Christ than their are of Caesar. But these aside, what other evidence do we accept of Julius Caesar? How do we know the details of the specific events of his life--what he said and what he did? For example, how do we know why he decided to cross the river and march his army on Rome?

I think I already addressed this in my response about what constitutes evidence and whose is more credible. The simple answer is, we can't. however, the claims of Christianity are extraordinary claims, and so, require extraordinary evidence to support them. If Caesar were alive today, he could do the same things and no one would ask the same questions in the same vein. However, if Jesus were alive today and did the things he was purported to have done, then you can bet your ass there would be a lot more scrutiny of what he was doing and how he was doing it.

(July 14, 2012 at 8:51 pm)jonb Wrote:

(July 14, 2012 at 8:30 pm)spockrates Wrote: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

(Matthew 19)

Jesus had an appreciation for the absurd, too. And the courage to poke fun at the wealthy and powerful. Don't you think?

I don't know. You own a computer.

And you are...the Matrix? C'mon! Do I look like a battery to you?