(September 6, 2009 at 1:00 pm)Retorth Wrote:

Quote:They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

People will be given a reasonable chance to decide to be allegiant to God or not (these Israelites knowingly entered a covenant with no fine print - same goes for your other verses) - everyone will understand what's going to happen if they reject God. What will happen? You said death will happen - forcing people to choose life - with Biblical support - what does that mean in terms of eternity though?

I think what will happen is analogous to joining a nation [heaven] - or choosing to live among the perils of the wild, bandits and all [hell]. I'm guess[ing] that rebels will live together apart from God and His rules - instead of being actively punished/abused by God, His angels, or other such inhabitants of heaven (like believers themselves). The rebels will punish themselves through lawlessness and non-unified existence. They will be allowed to exist just like Satan, I'd guess.

bozo Wrote:...I would not want to spend an eternity with god and people like you!

I wouldn't force any such thing upon you, so no worries. I value you that much, at least!

Ace Wrote:...When you die you cease to exist. I'm happy with that.
So if I was offered heaven, I'd ask god to send me into oblivion. I couldn't possibly spend all eternity existing. Especially with some god like thing.
Personally I don't like the idea of an afterlife.

So could you enjoy committing suicide here on earth? If you're happy with ceasing to exist - what keeps you going on living? And then again in eternity, suicide (if it came to that)? I'm sorry to hear that, but you are your own keeper.
Here's a guy that wouldn't think God is so forceful after all, if he believed, Retorth - he'd say, "Death? Gladly!". What would you say to someone like him - who throws a bone your thoughts on choice? What your saying is that if someone asked you to jump off a cliff they wouldn't be expecting you to really choose at all - allegedly it's not really a choice if one option is 'better' than the other. Ace says death is better than life, now what?

(September 6, 2009 at 11:23 pm)ecolox Wrote: People will be given a reasonable chance to decide to be allegiant to God or not (these Israelites knowingly entered a covenant with no fine print - same goes for your other verses) - everyone will understand what's going to happen if they reject God. What will happen? You said death will happen - forcing people to choose life - with Biblical support - what does that mean in terms of eternity though?

I think what will happen is analogous to joining a nation [heaven] - or choosing to live among the perils of the wild, bandits and all [hell]. I'm guess[ing] that rebels will live together apart from God and His rules - instead of being actively punished/abused by God, His angels, or other such inhabitants of heaven (like believers themselves). The rebels will punish themselves through lawlessness and non-unified existence. They will be allowed to exist just like Satan, I'd guess.

This can make sense in the bible, and in the bible only but it does not apply in the real world. There are many decent people who do not believe in god but live their lives as any other good person. They have morals and work hard in life. Yet, merely because of their disbelief, your god condemns them. Not that these people would care to begin with, but how would this justify the goodness and fairness of your god?

ecolox Wrote:So could you enjoy committing suicide here on earth? If you're happy with ceasing to exist - what keeps you going on living? And then again in eternity, suicide (if it came to that)? I'm sorry to hear that, but you are your own keeper.
Here's a guy that wouldn't think God is so forceful after all, if he believed, Retorth - he'd say, "Death? Gladly!". What would you say to someone like him - who throws a bone your thoughts on choice? What your saying is that if someone asked you to jump off a cliff they wouldn't be expecting you to really choose at all - allegedly it's not really a choice if one option is 'better' than the other. Ace says death is better than life, now what?

Where did he mention enjoying committing suicide? You do it(suicide) once and thats it. There is no enjoying. He is merely stating that if and when he passes on, he'd rather just stay in a state of constant sleep, ceasing to exist, allowing himself to forever rest, as it were before he was born.

How can you be so sure one choice is better then the other when there are those who beg to differ. It's your perspective that makes one choice out to be better. Others don't see it the same way.

Ecolox...

How do you know God exists?

Retorth Wrote:This can make sense in the bible, and in the bible only but it does not apply in the real world. There are many decent people who do not believe in god but live their lives as any other good person. They have morals and work hard in life. Yet, merely because of their disbelief, your god condemns them. Not that these people would care to begin with, but how would this justify the goodness and fairness of your god?

What are you talking about (makes sense there, not here - what do you know about the real world - etc)? And yes, I do think that some people do not believe in God but live life decently. God looks at the heart more than He does the mind, so could it be that an unbeliever could be saved? Maybe, maybe.
Last point - again - God looks at the heart - if someone can live for Jesus/goodness, then can a person live for goodness without knowledge of Jesus... Surely.

Retorth Wrote:Where did he mention enjoying committing suicide?

I asked if he would, since he said he'd be happy to cease to exist.

Retorth Wrote:You do it(suicide) once and thats it. There is no enjoying. He is merely stating that if and when he passes on, he'd rather just stay in a state of constant sleep, ceasing to exist, allowing himself to forever rest, as it were before he was born.

Once and that's it? How can you be sure? But he said ceasing to exist would basically be a delight. Could it be that he would be happy as he was killing himself - and when he actually ceased to exist he would stop being happy - 'resting' from all that happiness.

Retorth Wrote:How can you be so sure one choice is better then the other when there are those who beg to differ. It's your perspective that makes one choice out to be better. Others don't see it the same way.

The question is why do I choose life over death when some choose differently? God makes life worthwhile to me. Some people kill themselves to put themselves out of their own misery. If you have a reason to live (i.e. if you are connected to other lives {e.g. children, wife, friends, God}) then misery is tolerable. If you have no reason for existing, then how could your misery be tolerable? Also, if a person cannot tolerate misery, then how could they be moral - they would seek pleasure/relief instead. But if God is real, then we'd always have a point - through everything - better than pleasure seeking and self-serving...being with God is worth all the misery in the world.

If it was only my perspective that one choice is better than the other - why did you tell me that God was forceful (as in forcing one option over another)? Yes, others don't see it in the same way, but apparently you do.

(September 7, 2009 at 12:13 am)theVOID Wrote: How do you know God exists?

I don't know how else to explain this existence. If God doesn't exist, why would I? Don't say there isn't a reason, because that wouldn't be rational.

(September 7, 2009 at 3:07 am)ecolox Wrote:

(September 7, 2009 at 12:13 am)theVOID Wrote: How do you know God exists?

I don't know how else to explain this existence. If God doesn't exist, why would I? Don't say there isn't a reason, because that wouldn't be rational.

So the reason you believe in God is essentially because you see no other way existence is possible?

That seems like a silly position to take, to settle on an intentionally comforting conclusion reached by bronze age people in the middle of Palestine, because you couldn't explain it... To rely on an assumption without proof because it is an easy one to believe... not to mention it is a position completely unsupported by evidence and one that was derived from such a limited view of existence.

The people who lived in 1st century A.D were idiots; uneducated, superstitious, largely illiterate and devoid of logical thought and reason. To base a world view on the musings of a society with those credentials is stupid. These were not wise people, they were not intelligent people, they were largely not even good people but rather completely barbaric, intolerant people.

So it raises the question; why the fuck would you listen to a word that came from this period, let along take it as gospel?

(September 6, 2009 at 11:23 pm)ecolox Wrote:

Ace Wrote:...When you die you cease to exist. I'm happy with that.
So if I was offered heaven, I'd ask god to send me into oblivion. I couldn't possibly spend all eternity existing. Especially with some god like thing.
Personally I don't like the idea of an afterlife.

So could you enjoy committing suicide here on earth? If you're happy with ceasing to exist - what keeps you going on living? And then again in eternity, suicide (if it came to that)? I'm sorry to hear that, but you are your own keeper.
Here's a guy that wouldn't think God is so forceful after all, if he believed, Retorth - he'd say, "Death? Gladly!". What would you say to someone like him - who throws a bone your thoughts on choice? What your saying is that if someone asked you to jump off a cliff they wouldn't be expecting you to really choose at all - allegedly it's not really a choice if one option is 'better' than the other. Ace says death is better than life, now what?

I didn't say I would enjoy committing suicide. What keeps me living is the fact that this existence is temporary and limited and so I plan to live it up while I can because there will be no other life than this one. Enjoying every moment as if it were my last. It's because I don't believe in another life beyond this one that I know I must take great care of this life. I didn't say death is better than life, I'm saying death is the end! Death is where we all vanish into non-existence. Gone forever. That's what happens to biolgocial lifeforms and guess what? We are biological lifeforms and so we will die and vanish. Tell me, Have you ever considered that your belief in an afterlife might be wrong? That you could actually end up no longer existing instead?

Just because there is no afterlife does not mean we go about killing ourselves. That happens to be the dumbest thing anyone has yet said. It's because there is no afterlife that we should take great care with it.
I don't like the idea of there being an afterlife. I'm glad there is an end.

ecolox Wrote:And yes, I do think that some people do not believe in God but live life decently. God looks at the heart more than He does the mind, so could it be that an unbeliever could be saved? Maybe, maybe.
Last point - again - God looks at the heart - if someone can live for Jesus/goodness, then can a person live for goodness without knowledge of Jesus... Surely.

But he still condemns non-believers, so how is that just? How is that a representation of goodness?

ecolox Wrote:so could it be that an unbeliever could be saved? Maybe, maybe.

Are you telling me he is an indecisive god? Or that you are unsure if he would save non-believers?

ecolox Wrote:I asked if he would, since he said he'd be happy to cease to exist.

Fair enough. I stand corrected on this point.

ecolox Wrote:Once and that's it? How can you be sure? But he said ceasing to exist would basically be a delight. Could it be that he would be happy as he was killing himself - and when he actually ceased to exist he would stop being happy - 'resting' from all that happiness.

When you commit suicide, the object is to kill yourself. How can you possibly do it more then once? If you say "attempted suicide" then ok you can do that more then once. And in any case, Ace already explained himself above so I'll leave it at that.

ecolox Wrote:The question is why do I choose life over death when some choose differently? God makes life worthwhile to me. Some people kill themselves to put themselves out of their own misery. If you have a reason to live (i.e. if you are connected to other lives {e.g. children, wife, friends, God}) then misery is tolerable. If you have no reason for existing, then how could your misery be tolerable? Also, if a person cannot tolerate misery, then how could they be moral - they would seek pleasure/relief instead. But if God is real, then we'd always have a point - through everything - better than pleasure seeking and self-serving...being with God is worth all the misery in the world.

But what if god doesn't even exist? (I use "what if" to be fair) If he doesn't exist, the only options left are your friends and family which are the people that I live for. You are choosing to base your main reason for living solely on god. I ask again, what if you are wrong about his existence? Will you end your life then since there is nothing else for you to live for? You cannot even prove that he exists can you? If you do, I definitely am keen to hear more.

ecolox Wrote:If it was only my perspective that one choice is better than the other - why did you tell me that God was forceful (as in forcing one option over another)? Yes, others don't see it in the same way, but apparently you do.

I do what? See it in the same way? God, in the bible, is forceful. He doesn't let us choose even though he claims that we can. Either you follow him or face condemnation. The evidence is everywhere. Ask anyone here and they will tell you the same.

(September 7, 2009 at 7:31 am)Retorth Wrote: But he still condemns non-believers, so how is that just?

Justice means performing what positive law demands. Those who break the law are liable to judgment. It is 'just' by definition.

(September 7, 2009 at 7:52 am)Arcanus Wrote:

(September 7, 2009 at 7:31 am)Retorth Wrote: But he still condemns non-believers, so how is that just?

Justice means performing what positive law demands. Those who break the law are liable to judgment. It is 'just' by definition.

So you are saying believing in god is a law? If that is so, then the "choice' of believing in him or not is irrelevant.

(September 6, 2009 at 10:09 pm)Arcanus Wrote:

(September 6, 2009 at 8:05 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: So a variant on the No-True-Scotsman fallacy, then?

Could you explain how you think my skepticism about theological literacy is even a variant of the No-True-Scotsman fallacy?

In essence you then went on to describe how the other denizens if this forum (despite many having Christian roots) lacked the requisite experience to criticise your chosen religion. It's worth noting that at least one other agreed with my assessment ... of course he's not a Christian either so his view is no doubt invalid.

Kyu