(August 31, 2012 at 2:10 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(August 31, 2012 at 12:24 am)cratehorus Wrote: Ron Paul is a neo nazi

Incorrect.

I am aware of what Ron Paul "tells" people...

Every program, or law, that I listed that Ron Paul wants abolished has several years of court cases and arguments against them. It is extremely easy to look these up and present them as YOUR legitamate reason for wanting this law abolished. Instead of going through each of these arguments let's look at them together. Do you beleive the civil rights act should be abolished? Do you beleive abortion should outlawed even in the case of incest and rape? Do you beleive global warming is a hoax? Most americans who identify as "libertarian" don't. So why do they support ron paul?

Since you listed ron paul's website as a credible source, I'm sure you will have no problem, at all, taking these websites as credible sources, as well

Anonymous Hacks Neo-Nazis, Finds Ron Paul

Quote:The hacktivist collective Anonymous set out to take down the white supremacist American Third Party (A3P) in what they called “Operation Blitzkrieg” but they may have done much more.

In a document dump that includes private forum messages, emails, organization notes another other information the group found numerous connections between Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul and A3P. According to the documents, all hosted here, Paul himself regularly met with many A3P members, engaged in conference calls with their board of directors and engaged in a “bridging tactic” between A3P and the Ron Paul Revolution.

http://www.care2.com/causes/anonymous-ha...-paul.html

The Ron Paul Campaign and its Neo-Nazi Supporters

Quote:Williams is not Paul's only supremacist supporter. "Former" KKK leader (and convicted fraudster) David Duke's website http://www.whitecivilrights.com/, calls Ron Paul "our king" and cheers while "Ron Paul Hits a Home Run on Jay Leno Show." Duke also includes a "Ron Paul campaign update" and plugs Ron Paul fundraising efforts. These articles are posted right next to articles such as "Ten reasons why the Holocaust is a fraud" and "Germans Still Remember their Historical Greatness"-featuring a map of Hitler's Third Reich at its 1942 military height, just in case anybody doesn't get the point. Apparently "Dr. Paul's positive agenda for freedom" is attractive to those who ape the world's worst tyrants and genocidaires.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/t...d_its.html

Ron Paul Endorsed By Former KKK Grand Wizard

Quote:Former KKK Grand Wizard and Louisiana Congressman David Duke also phoned in to explain why he's voting for Mr. Paul.

"Everybody, all of us back in the 80?s and 90?s, felt Ron Paul was, you know, unusual in that he had actually been a Congressman, that he was one of us and now, of course, that he has this broad demographic-broad base of support," Mr. Black said on his broadcast yesterday.

http://www.bilerico.com/2012/01/ron_paul...leader.php

Ron Paul Photographed With Neo-Nazis

http://www.buzzfeed.com/pajaroentertainm...nazis-31ii

OPINION: Ron Paul Is A White Supremacist
http://newsone.com/444922/opinion-ron-pa...premacist/

RON PAUL: AMERICA’S MOST DANGEROUS NAZI (e-book)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/76540883/Ron-P...in-America

Ron Paul and His KKK, White Supremacist, and Neo-Nazi Supporters
http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/...kkk-white/

(August 31, 2012 at 11:42 pm)cratehorus Wrote: Instead of going through each of these arguments let's look at them together.

No, let's go over them how I responded to you. You put together a string of arguments claiming Ron Paul was a neo-nazi based on what laws he wants to abolish. I countered with the real reasons he wants to abolish them, which are all completely different to "because I hate black people and jews", as you'd have me believe.

Quote:Since you listed ron paul's website as a credible source, I'm sure you will have no problem, at all, taking these websites as credible sources, as well

You realise the discovered "links" are all one-way right? There is not a single email or message from Ron Paul reaching out to these groups. Rather, it is the group members claiming to have met with him or to have organized meetings with him. Likewise, the photo in which he stands with neo-nazis appears to be at some sort of public gathering, and from the photo, I wouldn't be able to tell their political beliefs. Regardless, Ron Paul stands next to many people to have his photo taken, it does not make him an instant supporter of their ideals.

Finally, of course, it should be mentioned that nobody gets to pick (or control) who supports them. Obama is supported by many black nationalist groups, but does that make him a black nationalist? No.

Find me some real evidence, and whilst you are at it, why not respond to my post instead of ignoring it? That is the height of rudeness.

(September 1, 2012 at 2:58 am)Tiberius Wrote: No, let's go over them how I responded to you. You put together a string of arguments claiming Ron Paul was a neo-nazi based on what laws he wants to abolish. I countered with the real reasons he wants to abolish them, which are all completely different to "because I hate black people and jews", as you'd have me believe.

no you listed what ron paul says if someone asks, why he has these insane posistions. I said, I know what he says, and said he's lying.

Quote:You realise the discovered "links" are all one-way right? There is not a single email or message from Ron Paul reaching out to these groups. Rather, it is the group members claiming to have met with him or to have organized meetings with him. Likewise, the photo in which he stands with neo-nazis appears to be at some sort of public gathering, and from the photo, I wouldn't be able to tell their political beliefs. Regardless, Ron Paul stands next to many people to have his photo taken, it does not make him an instant supporter of their ideals.

Finally, of course, it should be mentioned that nobody gets to pick (or control) who supports them. Obama is supported by many black nationalist groups, but does that make him a black nationalist? No.

Find me some real evidence, and whilst you are at it, why not respond to my post instead of ignoring it? That is the height of rudeness.

Do you support outlawing abortion? Do you beleive global warming is a hoax? If you don't, then why do you support a "fringe candidate" who has no hope of winning even if he did really mean what he says? And I'm sure many crazy people of all kinds support both of the 2 established right and left wing political parties in our 2 party system.... the democrat and republican parties.

Anyway since you seem to think the only way to "prove" someone is a white supremacist is if they have a swastika tattoo'ed on their forehead. There's no point in discussing this with you because eventually you'll just start telling me obama secret ninja army put all this evidence, and photoes and all the videos of him speaking at white power rallies and confrences were all doctored. Even the ones in the 90's right?.......Seeing as how obama's birth certificate was faked by the governor of hawaiii in the 1940's your obviously "aware" this commie/muslim extremist takeover has been happening for years............

So how deep into this illuminati crap are you? Let me guess you think the Federal Reserve is evil? right?

Ron Paul is not new,by the way, he's been around for a long fucking time

Quote:In 1981 a group of American and Canadian white supremacists lead by Klansman and mercenary, Michael (Mike) Perdue planned on taking over a small West Indian country called Dominica by overthrowing the government and Prime Minister Eugenia Charles and restoring its previous prime minister, Patrick Johns into power. The group planned to create an Aryan paradise in Dominica and make money through casinos, cocaine and brothels.

On the day the group of white supremacists were supposed to travel to Dominica, they were arrested by ATF agents and were found with over thirty automatic weapons, shotguns, rifles, handguns, dynamite, ammunition, a confederate flag and a Nazi flag. The plan would be dubbed “The Bayou Of Pigs” after the failed invasion of Cuba.

The leader of the group, Michael Perdue, would plead guilty to planning the coup and turned state’s evidence. Perdue would testify that several other people helped organize and fund the coup and that two Texas politicians were aware of the plan. Among those Perdue implicated were infamous white supremacist, David Duke, former Texas Governor, John Connally and Congressman, Ron Paul whom he claimed knew about the plot. Connally was credited with helping Paul win his first congressional election.

A judge refused to subpoena Paul and Connally despite the fact that Perdue had claimed that both of them were aware of the plot. Don Black’s friend and fellow KKK Grand Wizard, David Duke was called to testify before a grand jury but claimed that he would take the Fifth Amendment and never testified. While Duke was never charged with a crime, several books points to Duke as the organizer who connected Perdue to the other mercenary Klansmen and the people who funded their endeavor. (1 2 3) Everyone else implicated by Perdue was charged with the plot.

Perdue implicated three men as funders of the plot, L.E. Matthews of Jackson, Mississippi, James C. White of Houston, and David Duke’s close friend and backer, J.W. Kirkpatrick. Kirpatrick would kill himself before he could stand trial and White and Matthews would be acquitted in court. Former Prime Minister of Dominica, Patrick Johns would be sentenced to 12 years in prison for his part of the plot. Michael Perdue, Don Black and seven other Klansmen would be sentenced to only 3 years in prison.

Ron Paul has never made a statement denying knowledge of the plot despite the fact that he was implicated by Perdue and almost subpoenaed. Two of the people involved in the plot, Don Black and David Duke have gone on to become two of the most prominent white supremacists of the modern era, and also two of Paul’s most controversial supporters.

Paul would be once again tied to Don Black 26 years after the Bayou Of Pigs. After it was revealed that Black donated $500 dollars to the Ron Paul Presidential campaign, Ron Paul’s campaign refused to give it back. Paul was photographed with Black and his son by David Duke’s former assistant, Jamie Kelso who was an organizer for Ron Paul and the owner of white supremacist sites, WhiteNewsNow.com and TheWhiteRace.com and a moderator for Black’s neo-Nazi website, Stormfront.

Black would become one of Paul’s most enthusiastic supporters and helped rally the white supremacist community around Paul, through Stormfront. Paul would praise another Operation Red Dog planner, David Duke in his newsletters and Duke would return the favor calling him “our king” and endorsing him for President.

This would not be the first time Paul was tied to white supremacists. In 80s, Paul claimed that the best source of his campaign donations came from a list from notorious neo-Nazi, Willis Carto’s publication, The Spotlight. In the 90s, Paul’s newsletters were originally discovered from an online neo-Nazi directory. As recently as 2006, Paul was scheduled to appear on David Duke’s white supremacist protégé, James Edwards’ radio show, “The Political Cesspool.”

Given the scrutiny given to presidential candidates, shouldn’t Paul’s connection to an attempted violent invasion of a small island by white supremacists be re-investigated. If the media investigates every accusation of affairs or sexual harassment for Herman Cain or Newt Gingrich, shouldn’t they investigate accusations that Paul knew about a white supremacist plot to violently overthrow the government of a small Black island, especially with Paul’s other connections to white supremacists?

http://newsone.com/1805245/ron-paul-was-...-invasion/

Top 10 Racist Ron Paul Friends, Supporters
http://newsone.com/1748295/top-10-racist...upporters/

(August 31, 2012 at 4:47 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(August 31, 2012 at 4:21 pm)A Theist Wrote: Agreed with everything except for Iran. Iran has already made it's intentions plain that it does not tolerate Israel existing in the Middle East, nor does Iran tolerate the U.S. and the West. I think a nuclear armed Iran is a threat that we should take seriously.

I'd agree with you, but the fact remains that all the countries that oppose Iran having nuclear weapons, have nuclear weapons. How do you think it comes across to a country like Iran when other countries start to try and dictate what sorts of weapons it can have (even defensively). Israel isn't innocent in this conflict either.

Besides, any country with the intellectual know-how to create such weapons would understand the suicide move it would ultimately be to use them provocatively. At this point, we're in a stalemate in regards to nuclear weapons, and it wouldn't surprise me if a country never uses one in an act of aggression ever again.

I'm personally in favour of the Ron Paul approach: let other countries do what they want, but maintain diplomatic relationships and try to influence them that way. No good comes of trying to bully someone.

I would agree if it weren't for other factors.

1). Iran has stated that they do not tolerate the existence of Israel in the Middle East.
2). How Israel perceives that Iranian threat.
3). A real possibility that Israel will strike at Iran's nuclear facilities expanding into a conflict that will include the U.S., and possibly Britain, Russia and China, all protecting their vested interests in the region.
4). Iran is also involved in state sponsored terrorism throughout that region and beyond and was suspected to have involved its military in a recent conflict between Israel and Lebanon.
5). The U.S. also takes seriously the Iranian threat to close the Strait of Hormuz.
6). The UN is also fearful of a nuclear armed Iran and I think the general consensus is that Iran would use them.
These are very realistic possibilities that I think we need to be prepared to meet. I don't think Iran has shown that it wouldn't use nuclear weapons. Iraq used chemical weapons in its war with Iran and I think the leadership in Iran is just as crazy as Saddam Hussein to use nuclear weapons.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...95931.html

(September 1, 2012 at 4:08 am)cratehorus Wrote: no you listed what ron paul says if someone asks, why he has these insane posistions. I said, I know what he says, and said he's lying.

I hold that you have no evidence whatsoever that he is lying; you just want him to be lying. Until you present evidence, we can only go with his words and his actions, and both of them speak well for him. He has consistently supported his positions for his entire time in public office. Even before that time, there is far more evidence to support that he had no racist ideals at all. For instance, this anti-attack ad the campaign released documented the story of a poor mixed-race family, who were refused help by all doctors apart from Ron Paul when the wife went into labour. Ron Paul also refused to bill them for his services.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rv0Z5SNrF4

Quote:Do you support outlawing abortion?

My opinion on abortion is...mixed. Some circumstances should certainly be outlawed. Others...perhaps not.

Quote:Do you beleive global warming is a hoax?

No, but I don't think many climate scientists are being 100% honest either.

Quote:If you don't, then why do you support a "fringe candidate" who has no hope of winning even if he did really mean what he says?

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realise you had to vote for candidates that you agreed 100% on everything with. How silly of me. </sarcasm>

Seriously though, I support Ron Paul because I agree with him on most things he says. Out of the two potential disagreements you cited, I view them as very minor issues compared to the actual important things we should be focusing on, like getting the economy back on track, regaining our personal liberty, and stopping senseless wars like Iraq, Afghanistan, and the war on drugs.

He's only a "fringe" candidate because the media label him so. He has a very large percentage of the youth vote, and the youth vote will soon become the "mature" vote.

Quote:And I'm sure many crazy people of all kinds support both of the 2 established right and left wing political parties in our 2 party system.... the democrat and republican parties.

Yes, they do. My point was, you can't use supporters to define a candidate. It's unfair, since the candidate has zero control over this. If a racist wants to vote for Ron Paul, how is it Ron Paul's fault?

Quote:Anyway since you seem to think the only way to "prove" someone is a white supremacist is if they have a swastika tattoo'ed on their forehead.

When did I say that? I said that looking at the photo, you couldn't tell the guys were racists. The photo looks like it was taken at some sort of public event; there is no evidence whatsoever that Ron Paul knew who the guys were. He's a nice guy...he poses for photos with lots of people.

Quote:There's no point in discussing this with you because eventually you'll just start telling me obama secret ninja army put all this evidence, and photoes and all the videos of him speaking at white power rallies and confrences were all doctored.

Since you have yet to present any photos and videos of him speaking at white power rallies and conferences, I can't see how you can claim this. No, I'm not going to say it's a secret Obama ninja army...I'm saying it's you, lying through your teeth. Show me the evidence, not just your words. You've already demonstrated yourself to be dishonest about Ron Paul's stated positions, so I am not in any position to trust you when you say these photos exist.

Regardless, as I've stated other times in other threads, even if Ron Paul was at one time a racist, why should that be held against him if he has clearly changed his views? People shouldn't be judged on the opinions they once held, but by the opinions they currently hold, because it is those opinions that matter, and those opinions that affect the policies they try to implement.

Quote:Even the ones in the 90's right?.......Seeing as how obama's birth certificate was faked by the governor of hawaiii in the 1940's your obviously "aware" this commie/muslim extremist takeover has been happening for years............

Obama's birth certificate was not faked. You seem more obsessed with conspiracy theories that I do, yet you are charging me with believing all this nonsense despite the fact I've never hinted at believing it. Learn to debate properly; making baseless accusations about your opponent is not just rude, but is a red herring and borderline ad hominem.

Quote:So how deep into this illuminati crap are you? Let me guess you think the Federal Reserve is evil? right?

Again, I have made no statements in this thread or anywhere else to even suggest that I believe the Illuminati exists. You are making completely baseless assertions...stop it. The federal reserve is not evil, but it is out of control. I agree with Ron Paul's "audit the fed" bill; I hope it passes.

(September 1, 2012 at 1:46 pm)Tiberius Wrote: The federal reserve is not evil, but it is out of control. I agree with Ron Paul's "audit the fed" bill; I hope it passes.

LOL!!!! PROVE IT!!!

(September 2, 2012 at 12:23 am)cratehorus Wrote:

(September 1, 2012 at 1:46 pm)Tiberius Wrote: The federal reserve is not evil, but it is out of control. I agree with Ron Paul's "audit the fed" bill; I hope it passes.

LOL!!!! PROVE IT!!!

Really? After I spend quite a long time breaking apart your argument and responding to it, you come back with a one line "prove it" and an unrelated picture?

I'd tell you to go learn how to debate properly again, but it's clear this isn't a debate anymore. It's just you trying desperately to discredit me by using baseless accusations, all because I tore apart your entire argument in my first post.

If you (or anyone else) happens to want to read up on why the Fed is out of control, or at least should be audited and kept under close scrutiny by Congress, there is a good Wikipedia page about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_...al_Reserve

(September 2, 2012 at 8:31 am)Tiberius Wrote: Really? After I spend quite a long time breaking apart your argument and responding to it, you come back with a one line "prove it" and an unrelated picture?

The John Birch Society is a white power group, are you saying he didn't speak there, or are you saying it's not a white supremacist group? Or do you just have no clue what you're talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

Quote:I'd tell you to go learn how to debate properly again, but it's clear this isn't a debate anymore. It's just you trying desperately to discredit me by using baseless accusations, all because I tore apart your entire argument in my first post.

I'm not sure what you've been debating exactly but I'm not debating, I'm informing you he's a nazi, and has been for over 40 years, if you don't beleive me (for whatever reason) there's nothing I can do to help

Quote:If you (or anyone else) happens to want to read up on why the Fed is out of control, or at least should be audited and kept under close scrutiny by Congress, there is a good Wikipedia page about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_...al_Reserve

Federal reserve isn't a problem no matter what Ron Paul's you tube videos say

Yeah, the Fed is pretty much a train off its rails and the conductor and engineer have jumped ship.

Also, it seems you've experienced the absolute idiocy of Cratehorus that I've already had to deal with.

I am not sure if John Birch Society is really a group that believes in stripping power and wealth from others to concentrate them in the hands of whites, as white power might be reasonably taken to mean, as much as a group that really has been inclusive of non whites, but morbidly consider the prevention of collectivist action not sponsored by itself to be a higher good than anything such collectivist action might achieve.