(September 2, 2012 at 5:19 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: BUT..... you are young and I will not be surprised IF @ say 26 - 30 you state emphatically that ".... there is no evidence for ANY deity, it is ALL crap and I am going off to live a good life"

I will, since Dave Courtney will have punched him out long before then .

However, as a fellow angel-islander I can appreciate your position, knight, even though I obviously don't share it. In my opinion, and please don't take this as a personal criticism, kids at the age of five can see magic everywhere and be impressed by any number of magical things; I have an uncle who still has my nose, for instance [/Homer_Simpson]. So to me indoctrinating a child (I know you didn't use that term but I can't think of any other way to describe it) at such an impressionable age is not only the easiest thing in the world, it's also the sleaziest thing in the world.

I have strong hopes that, in your own time, you will outgrow the need for such a cultural crutch - "put away childish things", if you like (and I honestly don't mean that in the sense of "never mind, you'll learn the truth one day", as xtians have said to me often enough at around your age). In my opinion, you're more than halfway there already. All you need to do is find the confidence to let go with the other hand. I have a feeling you'll soar.

(September 2, 2012 at 11:44 am)Napoléon Wrote:

(September 2, 2012 at 10:45 am)Cinjin Wrote: Apologies. I read too many threads and got my wires crossed about which church your loyalties lie with.

Does seem like there's a shit load of different christians to keep track of lately. At least with atheists you don't have to worry about what organisation they belong to or what the specifics of their beliefs are.

Atheists all belong in one group, one "orginisation"?

(September 2, 2012 at 6:33 pm)MeOwnThing Wrote:

(September 2, 2012 at 11:44 am)Napoléon Wrote: Does seem like there's a shit load of different christians to keep track of lately. At least with atheists you don't have to worry about what organisation they belong to or what the specifics of their beliefs are.

Atheists all belong in one group, one "orginisation"?

They don't which is why I think the church can be a stronger force for good. Right now, I'm in a country where Christians are only a small percentage of the population. But more than half of the welfare homes here are run by Christian groups. The Salvation Army here runs many orphanages, there are welfare homes run by the Anglican church, the Methodist church, the Presbyterian church and RCs have theirs too. There are even hospices with doctors run by a combined group of Protestant churches that include the Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians and Lutherans. The 7th-day Adventists also have a hospital here. I spoke to a native here and he said that most of the people prefer to take their unwell folks to hospices run by churches than those run by Buddhist groups (Buddhism is a majority here). The Buddhist groups are not so caring and they don't provide many things for the patients. They say the Christians are "dumb". They do all the good things for nothing.

I know there will be a deluge of angry replies about abuses by the church, etc. I don't deny there are abuses in ALL organisations. I'm just saying that the FACT is Christian groups do run charitable organisations more than anyone else and even in this country I'm in where Christians are only a small percentage of the population (I'm told it's only 15%), the bulk of the charities are run by Christians AND the locals here prefer going to them than to those run by their own religious groups.

When you are poor and dying and in need of a good hospice, surely it doesn't matter if the kind people happen to believe in a Fairy Godfather who they insist exists in a Trinity? If they are kind, they are kind.

(September 2, 2012 at 6:33 pm)MeOwnThing Wrote: Atheists all belong in one group, one "orginisation"?

There is very little in the way of organisation, which is precisely the point.

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(September 2, 2012 at 8:41 am)greneknight Wrote: God is a concept that I haven't really formulated properly in my head. At the moment, I accept that there is no evidence whatsoever for God to exist and there is no rational argument in favour of God that satisfies me or that cannot be refuted by other counter-arguments. I'm almost tempted to say God is bunkum but so much of Western civilization and art are based on this concept of God that I want to give myself more time to formulate my idea about it. Right now, I can only honestly admit in my head that God is probably a personified metaphor for goodness and truth. My feelings are different but feelings are unreliable and unthinking. But in my head, God can't be a personal being with independent thought and will. But it's all very fluid and uncertain. I really haven't quite made up my mind. This idea is not the idea of my vicar. It's my own personal idea based on my own observation and examination of the evidence and the arguments.

Because of my culture as a Christian, this metaphor God is best expressed in its Triune form - in the formula that we are used to in the Western culture. So I have no problem with crossing myself when the name of the Holy Trinity is invoked.

But nothing is carved in rock yet. I'm still explorin[/size]g and forming my own ideas.

Sounds incredibly wishy washy.

You struggle to even call yourself an actual theist yet identify yourself as christian for cultural reasons. Just seems stupid to me. Christianity is not just cultural, it is a religion. To call yourself one it would naturally make sense that you at least believe in the god it preaches. You seem not to, or have your own interpretation of it at least. But then again, I suppose the idea of god is indeed different for pretty much every christian.

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(September 2, 2012 at 7:12 pm)greneknight Wrote: I'm just saying that the FACT is Christian groups do run charitable organisations more than anyone else and even in this country

Care to back up these facts?

(September 1, 2012 at 9:26 am)greneknight Wrote: Most people in the Forum seem to think I'm more an atheist than a Christian. Someone suggested that I should start a thread about my position on what Christianity should be and how I view it. First, I'm not an atheist but I am a Christian. I serve the church and have done so as an altar boy since I was 5. I sang in the boys' choir from about 6 until recently when they thought my voice might break any time. There's no doubt I am a Christian. I'm on good terms with the clergy.

But I have always acknowledged that there is no evidence or even rational justification for God, faith and the supernatural/superstitious. The Bible is full of errors and untruths and even contain outright lies. It's unreliable, immoral, its canon is dubious, its transmission through the centuries totally fraught with problems and serious flaws. It's obvious St Paul's teachings conflicted with the original teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Why then do I continue with the faith?

1. Religion is cultural.

Religion is very much a part of my identity - national, familial and personal. Why rebel against that? It may be different if I was brought up in a fundamentalist church. That would be pretty disgusting. But the Church of England makes the religion more cultural than superstitious. It's the State church. Our Queen is the Head. A lot of State functions are religious. My school in England is owned by the Church and has performed church rituals for the past 500 years or so. Why change anything? It may be different in the US because the religion there is more about belief than practice. Practice is cultural.

2. I don't like to be a rebel.

I'm still young and I don't like to kick up a fuss for nothing. My parents aren't even religious in the fundamentalist sense. If I tell them God can't be defended logically and there is no evidence whatsoever for him, my parents will just agree with me because they don't think much of God in the first place. If I tell them the Bible is full of nonsense, my Mum would say "What did you expect? It's such an ancient book". But they would expect me to go through the rituals as a part of tradition and culture. That's precisely how I see Christianity anyway.

3. My emotions are stirred in a funny way during holy rituals.

When I am participating in a ritual which is very holy, I get a funny feeling in me. I know there is a perfectly logical explanation for it. As an altar boy, I was told at which point the holiest thing would take place in church. I was only 5 years old and naturally, I was a little frightened when that moment happened. It's like God descended to the altar. Now, I'm no longer frightened because I've been an altar boy for so long and besides, I know nothing will happen but I still get a funny feeling when the priest, the other altar boy and I kneel at that holiest moment. This is funny because at that moment, the whole congregation doesn't seem to realize it's the holiest moment. Only the priests and the altar boys know it and we kneel to the sacrament. I have done this all my life and I still feel something in me when the moment comes. Like I said, there is a logical reason why I should feel that. Rayaan probably feels the same when it's the holiest moment in the mosque. It's cultural. But it's not a bad feeling so why stop it? It feels like something important is happening but in reality, nothing happens. Nothing special or supernatural has ever happened in all my life as an altar boy. But even if it's not true, what's the harm?

To leave the church appears more like an act of disloyalty for me. Why am I embarrassed of my ancestors? True, they believed in a lot of rubbish and were superstitious but that's because they lived in ancient times. Today, I can continue the culture without the superstition. Lots of people in my church do precisely that. We continue the culture without the superstition.

Do you consider yourself to be a Luke Warm Christian?

(September 2, 2012 at 7:37 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(September 2, 2012 at 6:33 pm)MeOwnThing Wrote: Atheists all belong in one group, one "orginisation"?

There is very little in the way of organisation, which is precisely the point.

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(September 2, 2012 at 8:41 am)greneknight Wrote: God is a concept that I haven't really formulated properly in my head. At the moment, I accept that there is no evidence whatsoever for God to exist and there is no rational argument in favour of God that satisfies me or that cannot be refuted by other counter-arguments. I'm almost tempted to say God is bunkum but so much of Western civilization and art are based on this concept of God that I want to give myself more time to formulate my idea about it. Right now, I can only honestly admit in my head that God is probably a personified metaphor for goodness and truth. My feelings are different but feelings are unreliable and unthinking. But in my head, God can't be a personal being with independent thought and will. But it's all very fluid and uncertain. I really haven't quite made up my mind. This idea is not the idea of my vicar. It's my own personal idea based on my own observation and examination of the evidence and the arguments.

Because of my culture as a Christian, this metaphor God is best expressed in its Triune form - in the formula that we are used to in the Western culture. So I have no problem with crossing myself when the name of the Holy Trinity is invoked.

But nothing is carved in rock yet. I'm still explorin[/size]g and forming my own ideas.

Sounds incredibly wishy washy.

You struggle to even call yourself an actual theist yet identify yourself as christian for cultural reasons. Just seems stupid to me. Christianity is not just cultural, it is a religion. To call yourself one it would naturally make sense that you at least believe in the god it preaches. You seem not to, or have your own interpretation of it at least. But then again, I suppose the idea of god is indeed different for pretty much every christian.

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(September 2, 2012 at 7:12 pm)greneknight Wrote: I'm just saying that the FACT is Christian groups do run charitable organisations more than anyone else and even in this country

Care to back up these facts?

You asked if I could back up the fact that Christian groups run more charitable organisations than others. No, I have not researched that point. But I see things for myself. I've always lived in a country where my church is the established State church and if I picked my country as an example, that would be grossly unfair. Now, I am in a country where Christianity is the religion of a small minority of people here and I see the same thing about Christian organisations and the locals here tell me the same thing. You may ask for statistics and I tell you I have none and I'm not bothered about it. If you think I am wrong, fine. You can feel good in your supposition that atheists run the most charitable organisations. But I believe atheists are usually rational people and they will know deep in their hearts that I am right. Even if they don't or they don't want to admit it, that's no skin off my nose because I have said religion is cultural and I'm the last person on earth to bother to get people to join any religion.

But for me and my own personal observation, it's a FACT that Christians run the most charitable organisations all over the world, even in this country where they are a small minority.

There is a also a good reason why this is so. I know of priests who give up worldly luxuries just to serve people in poor countries. They may do so because of a belief that is incorrect - that I don't deny. But they serve nonetheless. Again, I believe atheists who are rational people will agree with me even though they may not want to admit it. I consider myself an honest Christian - I readily admit the flaws of my own religion. Atheists are usually honest too and I know if they can see the logic of what I'm saying, they will agree I'm right. Whether they care to admit or not is a different matter.

(September 1, 2012 at 10:03 pm)Jeffonthenet Wrote:

Quote:God exists but not as a being. He's a personified metaphor for goodness and truth.

If God is just a metaphor he cannot think as metaphors cannot think. If he is a metaphor then he is no more real than an allusion, a plot-line of a fictional story, a simile or a myth.

By George...I think you've got it!

(September 2, 2012 at 9:21 pm)Drich Wrote: Do you consider yourself to be a Luke Warm Christian?

I don't think I know what that means. I was baptised as an infant and I'll be confirmed later this year when I return to England. I have served as an altar boy ever since I was 5. I've sung the Magnificat and the Nunc Dimittis since I was 6 - ALMOST EVERY DAY at Evensong. So far, I have been blessed by countless vicars, bishops and even the Archbishops of Canterbury and York. Does that sound like a Luke Warm Christian (whatever that means)?

greneknight...you are an agnostic soft atheist. Sorry bro - just realize what you are and be honest about it.

Luke warms refers to someone that in their heart is neither for or against God but instead sitting on the fence. Apparently theology says they will get the worst of punishments in hell.