(September 15, 2012 at 3:56 pm)Polaris Wrote: It is impossible for an individual living in society not to have their morality influenced by the countless millennium religious doctrine has interwoven among secular laws.

Well, as a millennium is 1000 years, religious doctrine certainly isn't countless. Christianity hasn't quite reached plural, yet. And I can count to 2.

Secular laws were interwoven among religious laws, so claiming that religious laws are interwoven amongst secular laws isn't really furthering your case any.

I can say with utter confidence that none of my morality has a religious basis. It is based on the Golden Rule, which long predates modern religion and is so intrinsically linked to the basis of our morality (reciprocity) that the period of that predating extends many thousands of years.

(September 15, 2012 at 6:15 pm)Red Celt Wrote:

(September 15, 2012 at 3:56 pm)Polaris Wrote: It is impossible for an individual living in society not to have their morality influenced by the countless millennium religious doctrine has interwoven among secular laws.

Well, as a millennium is 1000 years, religious doctrine certainly isn't countless. Christianity hasn't quite reached plural, yet. And I can count to 2.

Secular laws were interwoven among religious laws, so claiming that religious laws are interwoven amongst secular laws isn't really furthering your case any.

I can say with utter confidence that none of my morality has a religious basis. It is based on the Golden Rule, which long predates modern religion and is so intrinsically linked to the basis of our morality (reciprocity) that the period of that predating extends many thousands of years.

Religious beliefs trace back to the Paleolithic.

(September 15, 2012 at 6:41 pm)Polaris Wrote: Religious beliefs trace back to the Paleolithic.

Prove it.

(September 15, 2012 at 3:56 pm)Polaris Wrote: It is impossible for an individual living in society not to have their morality influenced by the countless millennium religious doctrine has interwoven among secular laws. You can try to deny that religion has influenced how you live your life, but you can also deny that the earth revolves around the sun....your denial does not either any less true.

Morality is not something that is inherently innate as some would like to argue, but is in fact nurtured which is why you don't see the same type of morality preserved in every culture. The current morality of a generation is ultimately built upon the sum of morality before it....think of it as an evolution of morality....the moral cues deemed desirable are preserved whereas the less desirable moral cues are dismissed.

And by now, for some of us, the religious portions have been completely dismissed.

(September 15, 2012 at 7:08 pm)Red Celt Wrote:

(September 15, 2012 at 6:41 pm)Polaris Wrote: Religious beliefs trace back to the Paleolithic.

Prove it.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...081347.htm

http://www.anth.uconn.edu/faculty/sosis/...sosis5.pdf

And no. You only think you have dismissed them, but they are still at the core of the evolution of human society and culture.

(September 15, 2012 at 7:15 pm)Polaris Wrote:

(September 15, 2012 at 7:08 pm)Red Celt Wrote: Prove it.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...081347.htm

http://www.anth.uconn.edu/faculty/sosis/...sosis5.pdf

And no. You only think you have dismissed them, but they are still at the core of the evolution of human society and culture.

Ah, the famous python carving.

OK. Firstly, a carving does not a religion make. There is a time-old tradition with archaeologists whereby, if they don't know what something is for, they label it as religious/ceremonial. Which isn't the same thing as knowledge. Imagine your own home (take a look around) and how everything might be imagined by an archaeologist who had little knowledge of our time. Objects which might have some artistic merit to you, might be imagined as ceremonial to a future person who can't come up with another answer.

Secondly, even if religion is in place... that isn't the same thing as religious morality. As recently as the Ancient Greeks, they had religious figures and gods which were celebrated and sacrificed to... but there were no accompanying religious tracts which insisted on anything remotely resembling ethics.

All of this post-dated (by a long way) secular morality. Later religions borrowed from it.

edit: and to intrude on any other counter-points... all social animals use morality. You can be all snobbish about it, and claim that it is crude, but their morality doesn't need to be as complex as ours. It still exists. Chimpanzees have a system of morality which interweaves with familial hierarchy. They don't have religion. Expand that to the earliest humans... and then try to repeat the claim that religion predated secular morality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjQCZClpaaY
Not Adam.

(September 15, 2012 at 7:39 pm)Red Celt Wrote:

(September 15, 2012 at 7:15 pm)Polaris Wrote: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...081347.htm

http://www.anth.uconn.edu/faculty/sosis/...sosis5.pdf

And no. You only think you have dismissed them, but they are still at the core of the evolution of human society and culture.

Ah, the famous python carving.

OK. Firstly, a carving does not a religion make. There is a time-old tradition with archaeologists whereby, if they don't know what something is for, they label it as religious/ceremonial. Which isn't the same thing as knowledge. Imagine your own home (take a look around) and how everything might be imagined by an archaeologist who had little knowledge of our time. Objects which might have some artistic merit to you, might be imagined as ceremonial to a future person who can't come up with another answer.

Secondly, even if religion is in place... that isn't the same thing as religious morality. As recently as the Ancient Greeks, they had religious figures and gods which were celebrated and sacrificed to... but there were no accompanying religious tracts which insisted on anything remotely resembling ethics.

All of this post-dated (by a long way) secular morality. Later religions borrowed from it.

edit: and to intrude on any other counter-points... all social animals use morality. You can be all snobbish about it, and claim that it is crude, but their morality doesn't need to be as complex as ours. It still exists. Chimpanzees have a system of morality which interweaves with familial hierarchy. They don't have religion. Expand that to the earliest humans... and then try to repeat the claim that religion predated secular morality.

Did you check the second link? It is widely accepted amongst anthropologists that the Neanderthals showed a particular reverence for their ancestors. This is considered by most to be the beginnings of religion within humanity.

Yeah. I don't see chimps setting up cemeteries for their dead adorned with decorations to worship their ancestors (not like the later ancestor worship religions though, this were those religions in the most primitive form).

(September 15, 2012 at 10:16 pm)Polaris Wrote: Did you check the second link? It is widely accepted amongst anthropologists that the Neanderthals showed a particular reverence for their ancestors. This is considered by most to be the beginnings of religion within humanity.

I clicked the link, but I was going offline, so it was a case of tl;dr, I'm afraid. But I'm already aware of the theorised decoration of Neanderthal graves. If true, it shows a sense of mourning... but again this is all of a country-mile away from the claim that religious law preceded secular law. You have suppositions, not evidence. Yet morality amongst existing social animals can be seen and witnessed... today, with your own eyes. Minus religion.

You're arguing for this:-

1. No secular morality
   
2. Religion
   
3. Religious morality
   
4. Secular morality

And you have failed on premise 1. Sorry, and all that... but them's the breaks.

(September 15, 2012 at 10:16 pm)Polaris Wrote: Yeah. I don't see chimps setting up cemeteries for their dead adorned with decorations to worship their ancestors (not like the later ancestor worship religions though, this were those religions in the most primitive form).

Back then, there wasn't a concept as secular morality. The two were the same, religion was at the center of life because it provided a common link between members of tribes and tribes themselves. Secularism is a recent phenomena and using it to describe societies of the past will likely lead you to confusion because you notice evidence that does not point to secular societies but rather to societies centered upon primitive worship and laws derived to adapt to this worship.

If you go by your logic that you can't know anything without seeing it, then we should throw history books out into the trash. But since it is clearly evident through archaeology of the purpose of certain sites, that is not necessary.

Chimps and elephants mourn, but that is nothing similar to worshiping....animals have displayed similar behavioral characteristics for hundreds of millions of years as evidenced in the fossil record (yes, many specimen have been found in still-life conditions)....they were not worshiping, just expressing their minimalistic nature like my stupid cat who whines when no one is around to pet him.

I have the evidence....the issue is not whether I have the evidence, it is whether you will throw away your preconceived notions out the window and actually examine the evidence using academic procedure....this is ultimately no different than showing a fossil of a Coelophysis to a Young Earth Creationist and them telling you it was a trick by the Devil.