(September 16, 2012 at 5:31 pm)genkaus Wrote:

(September 16, 2012 at 4:21 pm)Polaris Wrote: I don't see a difference especially when so many Americans still cheer when they see people getting executed.

You don't see the difference between people looking on horrified over a mass grave and a crowd cheering while burning someone alive?

Well I doubt the people cheering were part of that group being targeted. They'd likely keep their distance.

(September 16, 2012 at 3:37 pm)genkaus Wrote:

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: It would if we had lexicons that made morality and righteousness interchangeable. as it is, they do not. Because Man's morality is derived from self righteous behaivor. Which is a sin.

Actually we do and they do.

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: empty conjecture. All you have to do is provide topical reference material to shut me up.

Go consult a dictionary. And then shut up.

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Just because you are not willing to admit change in your own life for the sake of this arguement does not mean it has never changed.

So, you can understand the same standard being applied to your god.

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: (Fallacy: special pleading)

Exactly. So you see how all your talk about your god's righteousness just boils down to the fallacy of special pleading?

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Then use the bible and a lexicon to show me that what you have adopted to be true in your life is indeed true contextually in the New and old testaments. otherwise your arguement fails.

What are you blabbering about? I've adopted nothing from the new or old testaments. Why would I? I know it to be a pile of shit.

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Book Chapter and Verse please or even Give me a blue letter reference number. otherwise know your arguement has failed.

You already have the reference number. Check out the word "righteousness" and then compare it to the common dictionary meaning of moral.

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Then proove it show me where in the bible God accepts man's morality as his own or even on par with his stated righteousness. Otherwise know your arguement fails.

Are you being intentionally obtuse or are you just that stupid? Why would you expect bible to accept man's morality when it already holds god's morality as superior. I don't accept your god's morality because I hold mine to be superior.

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: If it meant the same thing then the lexicon would have made a note of it.

No, it wouldn't. A lexicon is not a thesaurus. The thesaurus, in fact, does make note of it.

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: The lexicon would have used the word morality to define righteousness at least in one instance. there are 6 words (that I counted in 2 mins) that the bible uses in the hebrew and in the greek that all get translated into the word righteous or righteousness.
'Morality" is not apart of any of those definations.

Actually, it is. If you look at other lexicons, apart form just that one, which, as it happens, doesn't seem to know that the word morality even exists, you'd find that righteousness is synonymous to morality.

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: As the lexicon consistantly reads, something has to be Ethically right (as per God expressed will) to be considered to righteous. Not all things that man has deemed 'moral' are considered to be ethically right in accordance with God's expressed will. I gave the example of Gay marriage or even Gay rights. Our soceity says it is immoral to keep gay couples from Getting married. This is an example of man's morality and where it is not consistent with God's expressed will and therefore could not be considered "ethically right." Meaning by God's standard in the Hebrew and Greek words defining the term this is not a righteous act.

You are not saying anything new here. Allowing gay marriage is ethically right (and therefore righteous) according to society's morality, but not according to god's morality. But since god's morality is not ethically right according to society's morality, god is not righteous according to society's standards but he is according to his own - which makes him self-righteous.

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Before you spin up a ton of empty conjecture to pad your empty arguement based on your current 'feelings' on what these words me to you or rather what you think these words should mean to everyone. Bring some more real to this discussion show me reference material or something other than your emasculated personal philosphies and well wishing. Understand you are not argueing me. you are argueing recognized reference material your only hope to have a legitmate arguement is to trump my reference material with something more accepted. (oh, and good luck with finding a source that translates hebrew and greek that will support your arguement that is more respected than the Blue letter bible.)

Go look at a dictionary and your lexicon. The dictionary defines morality and righteousness as synonymous. Your lexicon translates the greek and hebrew words as righteousness. The synonyms for both given in dictionary as well as the lexicon (justice, ethically right, truthfulness etc) apply consistently. There is no indication of distinction in usage anywhere - either in the dictionary or the lexicon. Therefore, they mean the same thing - res ipsa.....

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: That said, I am not saying you can't crap all over the orginal meaning of the Hebrew and greek words and use them any way you wish. Just understand when speaking of the Hebrew or Greek as it pertains to how the scripture were orginally meant to be understood morlaity is nothing more than self righteousness. And to judge God by your own self righteousness is foolish.

Thus, god's morality is god's self-righteousness. If he feels free to judge us by his morality, we should feel free to judge him by ours.

(September 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Drich Wrote: It's neither a good or bad thing. I simply pointed out this is the 2nd or 3rd time i gone down this road in this thread. You all can't seem to seperate Righteousness from morality, and I found it true that you can not make the conection between your beloved morality and self righteousness. I was trying to spare ben from dragging him through the same mud you went through.

Because righteousness and morality are the same thing. There is no distinction - as much as you'd like to pretend there is.

So in short you whole arguement resides in what a modern english dictionary (or rather what you think a modern dictionary would say because you still have referenced one) would say.. To help you determin the meaning of a Greek or Hebrew word... Well if you are going to be this obstinate then there is nothing more I can say or do for you.

(September 16, 2012 at 9:12 pm)Drich Wrote: So in short you whole arguement resides in what a modern english dictionary (or rather what you think a modern dictionary would say because you still have referenced one) would say.. To help you determin the meaning of a Greek or Hebrew word... Well if you are going to be this obstinate then there is nothing more I can say or do for you.

Nope. The meaning of the greek and hebrew word is translated to modern English as "righteousness" in the lexicon. The modern English dictionary establishes ''righteousness" as the same as "morality" - something that is not contradicted by the lexicon. If you are going to be so stupid as to not understand this extremely simple argument, then there is nothing more that can be done for you.

Also, why are you going for "in short". There are a lot of arguments made. Address them or consider them conceded.

god is immoral ...








uh yeah, no shit Captain Obvious.

"god" isn't immoral... necessarily... but "God" is. Specificity is a virtue.
Rather than list all the shit he is reportedly responsible for, I'll simply call him a twat and leave it at that.

(September 16, 2012 at 11:47 pm)genkaus Wrote:

(September 16, 2012 at 9:12 pm)Drich Wrote: So in short you whole arguement resides in what a modern english dictionary (or rather what you think a modern dictionary would say because you still have referenced one) would say.. To help you determin the meaning of a Greek or Hebrew word... Well if you are going to be this obstinate then there is nothing more I can say or do for you.

Nope. The meaning of the greek and hebrew word is translated to modern English as "righteousness" in the lexicon. The modern English dictionary establishes ''righteousness" as the same as "morality" - something that is not contradicted by the lexicon. If you are going to be so stupid as to not understand this extremely simple argument, then there is nothing more that can be done for you.

Also, why are you going for "in short". There are a lot of arguments made. Address them or consider them conceded.

This explaination has been refuted several times now in that not all things man considers to be 'moral' are righteous as per the Greek and Hebrew words. seperating God's righteousness from Man's morality.

(September 17, 2012 at 8:30 am)Drich Wrote: This explaination has been refuted several times now in that not all things man considers to be 'moral' are righteous as per the Greek and Hebrew words. seperating God's righteousness from Man's morality.

The refutation has been refuted several times now that there is no categorical god's righteousness and man's morality since the words righteousness and morality are synonyms. Thus, while the contents of god's and man's righteousness maybe different, they both fall under the same category of "morality". You haven't been able to provide any linguistic basis for distinction between "righteousness" and "morality", ignored all examples where righteousness is applied similarly to god and man and pretended as if the word "righteous" is an attribute solely applicable to god all the while conceding that that is not, in fact, the case.

But I don't expect you to learn anything from the complete refutation of your arguments. In fact, I expect that whenever the question of your god's immorality comes up, you'll jump in with the same tired old tripe, trying to evade the issue by claiming that morality is not applicable to your god. Well, you can try and we will start the whole tango all over again.

(September 17, 2012 at 9:30 am)genkaus Wrote: The refutation has been refuted several times now that there is no categorical god's righteousness and man's morality since the words righteousness and morality are synonyms.

Not in the Hebrew or Greek which is what we are discussing. As the bible is the sole legitmate source for cataloging the attributes of the God of the bible. Because the bible (in the hebrew and in the greek) seperate morality and Righteousness, any honest discussion concerning the nature of the God of the bible must adhear to what has been seperated.
Again this does not mean you can pretend and say that my bible is in english therefore it is subject to my understanding of the modern dictionary. Again that is fine and dandy, but also understand that is not proper exegesis of the Bible, and subsequently not an accurate repersentation of the God it describes. I guess you see this as well which is why you are argueiing from a point of faith rather than reference material.

which means the rest of your post can be dismissed as uninformed commentary.

(September 17, 2012 at 10:34 am)Drich Wrote: ...which means the rest of your post can be dismissed as uninformed commentary.

Any god who forces you to go through this type of intellectual gymnastics, to make such an important matter clear, is no god at all.

...which means that all your posts can be dismissed as special pleading.

By the way, regarding your point 'it's righteous if God says that it is': if an argument from authority is the only defense you have, we're done. You'd happily commit atrocities if you thought you were being commanded to by your deity. I don't need to say any more for most others to realise how wrong your position is.

Righteousness is acting on your moral principles. That is the accepted definition of the word. It means the same as whatever it was translated from in the bible, or is the closest word to whatever it was translated from, unless you are going to argue that there is a special biblical definition of righteousness.