(September 21, 2009 at 3:23 pm)Overmars Wrote: ‘Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.’ This quote by Marcus Aurelius seals the discussion about Pascal's wager.

Aurelius says "live a good life" (why?). Then he says if the gods are just, they won't care how devout you have been. In other words they won't care how good you have been. How could it be that the just gods wouldn't require you to be good? And how could it be that the just gods would ignore the vices you lived by?

And if there are no gods, then you will be destroyed and all evidence of your "noble life" will be destroyed. What if believers said that God did those things with everyone, would atheists be happy? Is it the fact that God is said to discriminate between good and evil that incites atheists to deny God?

You are equivocating "devout" with "good". Devotion to Gods is what is meant up above, and why should that be the first thing on a God's list? Isn't it better to just be good, whether devoted to Gods or not? And isn't it worse to be bad whether you're devoted to God or not? How does 'devoted to God' necessarily=Good? Or at all better than undevoted to God?

ecolox Wrote:And if there are no gods, then you will be destroyed and all evidence of your "noble life" will be destroyed.

Evidence that please.

Quote:Is it the fact that God is said to discriminate between good and evil that incites atheists to deny God?

No. Different atheists disbelieve for a number of different reasons. I myself don't believe because I know of no evidence.

EvF

For all have sinned and fallen short of the grace of God. It is by grace alone that Christians are saved not by any of there actions on this Earth. That was my interpretation when I was a believer.

Rhizo

(September 21, 2009 at 5:21 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: You are equivocating "devout" with "good".

Devotion to just gods - or being good because the gods are good. What is being devout to just gods to you? How could it be anything different than what I am "equivocating".

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:Devotion to Gods is what is meant up above, and why should that be the first thing on a God's list?

If you chose to believe in just gods, then how could being devout be anything other than being good in this case? Why wouldn't the just gods want you to be good first?

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:Isn't it better to just be good, whether devoted to Gods or not?

How are you deciding that good is simply better? Doesn't being good require a person to sacrifice themselves or their means? Why would someone give up their own? Can anyone "just be good", without any ultimate reason? Isn't that irrational? It would be like a partial suicide, at the very least - and if they gave themselves up completely (without any ultimate reason) it would be like suicide, wouldn't it?

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:And isn't it worse to be bad whether you're devoted to God or not?

Again, by what standard? Being bad is easy to justify (so long as you avoid getting in trouble) - it means taking real benefits (that you can see and feel) that aren't yours or that aren't anyones that you know of (but that may be against the gods' wishes). This is inline with individual survival/livelihood - which is ultimately all an individual atheist has, right? It means acting in favor of yourself. It means acting with the goal of "winning" benefits. What rules are there to prevent competition on every front (whether it be winning through thievery or through consensual deals)?

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:How does 'devoted to God' necessarily=Good? Or at all better than undevoted to God?

Could being devoted to just gods be anything other than Good? If someone is un-devoted to just gods, then how can they be good (or as you say "better")?

ecolox Wrote:And if there are no gods, then you will be destroyed and all evidence of your "noble life" will be destroyed.

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:Evidence that please.

It is your belief that you will be destroyed, along with anyone who may remember you - right? If these entities are not headed towards destruction (as I thought your belief necessitated), where are they going?

Quote:Is it the fact that God is said to discriminate between good and evil that incites atheists to deny God?

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:No. Different atheists disbelieve for a number of different reasons. I myself don't believe because I know of no evidence.

I see. Our existence is evidence of something though, isn't it?

---

(September 21, 2009 at 5:22 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: For all have sinned and fallen short of the grace of God. It is by grace alone that Christians are saved not by any of there actions on this Earth. That was my interpretation when I was a believer.

Rhizo

First you say all have fallen short of the grace of God. Then you say some do not fall short of grace (since they are saved by grace).

How is a Christian 'chosen' for this grace if their lives (and choices on earth) have nothing to do with it? Is it random or what?

(September 21, 2009 at 7:01 pm)ecolox Wrote: Could being devoted to just gods be anything other than Good? If someone is un-devoted to just gods, then how can they be good (or as you say "better")?

So every atheist here is bad? They don't give to charity, do good deeds, live a good life? They murder and rape and pillage? Is that what you think of us?

If you want to believe being devout means being good, fine. Believe what you want, it's you're privilege. But may I remind you that the 9/11 suicide bombers and abortion doctor killers, and the witch hunters, and the fighters of the crusades, the inquisitors from the middle ages...they were all devout believers.

However, in the context of this quote, he is equivocating devote with worshiping god and nothing more. You are just grasping at straws here.

(September 21, 2009 at 7:18 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote:

(September 21, 2009 at 7:01 pm)ecolox Wrote: Could being devoted to just gods be anything other than Good? If someone is un-devoted to just gods, then how can they be good (or as you say "better")?

So every atheist here is bad? They don't give to charity, do good deeds, live a good life? They murder and rape and pillage? Is that what you think of us?

I don't know. Atheists may want to murder, rape, and pillage but don't because they think it's not worth getting in trouble over...who knows. You could provide a list of all the things you do and your motives for doing them, your overall life goal, etc for analysis/critique.

Eilonnwy Wrote:If you want to believe being devout means being good, fine. Believe what you want, it's you're privilege. But may I remind you that the 9/11 suicide bombers and abortion doctor killers, and the witch hunters, and the fighters of the crusades, the inquisitors from the middle ages...they were all devout believers.

If you believe in unjust gods then being devout doesn't mean being good (which applies to all of your examples I guess).

Eilonnwy Wrote:However, in the context of this quote, he is equivocating devote with worshiping god and nothing more. You are just grasping at straws here.

How is worshipping the just gods any different from being good - i.e. doing as the just gods will? How could the just gods not care if you showed your devotion by being good? Instead, you showed your lack of devotion (which doesn't bother them apparently) by living for vice instead of virtue? Why would they welcome you anyway? In my opinion Aurelius' statement doesn't make sense.

I don't know how it can be explained much better, if they are truly just gods and you lived a good life (ignoring the all-to-common assumption that everyone secretly wamnts to rape and murder, we don't.) then you would be welcomed. Because to toss someone aside simply for not worshipping you would make you an unjust god.

If the gods are unjust then we certainly should not worship them, in all likelyhood we are just feeding the trolls if we do.

If there are no gods then we cease to exist. The evidence of our good life DOES NOT DISSAPEAR! We have likely bettered the world for the next generation, our children and the future of the human race.

If, as most atheists believe, there is no afterlife then this life of ours is very precious and the greatest gift we could ever give would be to improve the lives of those who will come after us.


I can't think of how to explain it much better, it intuitively makes sense to me.



In response to you, I could just as easily say that all christians wanted to rape murder and steal and don't because god says no. In fact a number of things have lead some atheists to that conclusion. However, just like saying that all atheists don't because we think it is not worth the trouble is it a gross generalisation and just plain wrong.

Even in above examples though, being devout does not equal being good. You can be a bad person and be devout and hate yourself. You won't be stable but I hope it gets my point accross. If you are devoted to a just god (witht he assumption that the god is actually just by most peoples definition) then it is LIKELY you are just or good, but not nesessarily. You can also be good without being devout to a just god.

Devout = the degree to which you are devoted to a deity
Good = how closely you are in line with what most people consider to be just and moral.

As far as your question to how the gods could not care: They may care, they may thank you and reward you for your devotion over all those years. But, a truly just god is not so egotistical as to punish you for not following exactly what he wants. He knows that you have free-will and might set your own path in life.

(September 21, 2009 at 8:56 pm)Demonaura Wrote: If there are no gods then we cease to exist. The evidence of our good life DOES NOT DISSAPEAR! We have likely bettered the world for the next generation, our children and the future of the human race.

The points you bring up to which I won't respond just seem like the same points I already responded to, it seems senseless to keep starting over.

All of the evidence of your good life DOES DISAPPEAR! You die, your children die, and the human race DIES. Do you believe the universe and the human race lasts forever and that the memory of you will last at all?

Demonaura Wrote:If, as most atheists believe, there is no afterlife then this life of ours is very precious and the greatest gift we could ever give would be to improve the lives of those who will come after us.

Why are you concerned about the lives of those who come after you? How can you live for future people - how have you determined that they are worth more than you? Shouldn't you live for you?

Demonaura Wrote:However, just like saying that all atheists don't because we think it is not worth the trouble is it a gross generalisation and just plain wrong.

Go back and read what I wrote. There's no use in attacking a strawman.

Demonaura Wrote:Even in above examples though, being devout does not equal being good. You can be a bad person and be devout and hate yourself. You won't be stable but I hope it gets my point accross.

Bad people aren't devout to the just gods, whilst hating themselves. Someone might be forced into that position, but it is unstable, dishonest (thus not devoted), and will simply result in their demise. Being honestly and freely devoted to the just gods equals being good.

Demonaura Wrote:You can also be good without being devout to a just god.

How? ...since just saying it doesn't make it so. Explain why you would be good - essentially why would you give up your own means, even your own life, for the sake of another when everyone is doomed to destruction (which is what happens according to people who could care less about the gods). In simpler terms, why would you be good for no reason? It doesn't make any sense in context of destruction. Why wouldn't you instead be rational and look after your own livelihood and survival?

Demonaura Wrote:As far as your question to how the gods could not care: They may care, they may thank you and reward you for your devotion over all those years. But, a truly just god is not so egotistical as to punish you for not following exactly what he wants. He knows that you have free-will and might set your own path in life.

So the just gods might not mind if you, in setting your own path, railroaded and stamped out as many other people as you could - to win or be better or get ahead in life. But then how could the gods be just? Is it egotistical to have standards or is it just?

(September 21, 2009 at 8:01 pm)ecolox Wrote: I don't know. Atheists may want to murder, rape, and pillage but don't because they think it's not worth getting in trouble over...who knows. You could provide a list of all the things you do and your motives for doing them, your overall life goal, etc for analysis/critique.

Seems to me you question morality, yes?

ecolox Wrote:All of the evidence of your good life DOES DISAPPEAR! You die, your children die, and the human race DIES. Do you believe the universe and the human race lasts forever and that the memory of you will last at all?

Overmars posted a quote by Marcus Aurelius that answers your question.

Marcus Aurelius Wrote:Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

ecolox Wrote:Why are you concerned about the lives of those who come after you? How can you live for future people - how have you determined that they are worth more than you? Shouldn't you live for you?

I believe when Demonaura refers to "people who will come after us" he is referring to our children.

ecolox Wrote:Bad people aren't devout to the just gods, whilst hating themselves. Someone might be forced into that position, but it is unstable, dishonest (thus not devoted), and will simply result in their demise. Being honestly and freely devoted to the just gods equals being good.

I was under the impression there was supposed to only be one just and true god. :S

ecolox Wrote:How? ...since just saying it doesn't make it so. Explain why you would be good - essentially why would you give up your own means, even your own life, for the sake of another when everyone is doomed to destruction (which is what happens according to people who could care less about the gods). In simpler terms, why would you be good for no reason? It doesn't make any sense in context of destruction. Why wouldn't you instead be rational and look after your own livelihood and survival?

That is a really grey picture you paint. "everyone is doomed to destruction" This is what happens not according to people who care less about gods, but according to your bible. I won't go on about that, however.

We are good because we choose to. Why do you need someone to tell you to be good? That's just immature. You should feel it in your heart to be as wonderful a human being as you can possibly be. This is being rational and is looking after our own livelihood and survival. To you, basing your entire being on a supernatural force in the sky is rational but that is far from rational to us. It's a matter of perspective.

We love our family and our children, we give them all we can and help them grow into beautiful human beings and as the quote above from Aurelius states, "you will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

You are just so narrow-minded in your outlook on the possibilities of a life without religion. Pardon my bluntness, but it is true you can't deny that. I mean its fine that you love your god and want to devote yourself entirely to him. It's fine if you think your life is not worth anything without your supreme being. However, it's not right to be putting other people down who do not think the same as you.

ecolox Wrote:So the just gods might not mind if you, in setting your own path, railroaded and stamped out as many other people as you could - to win or be better or get ahead in life. But then how could the gods be just? Is it egotistical to have standards or is it just?

Seriously, how many gods are we talking about here? lol

(September 21, 2009 at 7:01 pm)ecolox Wrote: Devotion to just gods - or being good because the gods are good. What is being devout to just gods to you? How could it be anything different than what I am "equivocating".

I never mentioned just gods, I mentioned gods. Whether the gods that are believed in are just or not, depends on the person. My point is even if you believe in a just God, how do you have any monopoly on morality exactly? How can atheists not be moral?

Give me one example of a moral act that cannot be done by an atheist.

ecolox Wrote:If you chose to believe in just gods, then how could being devout be anything other than being good in this case? Why wouldn't the just gods want you to be good first?

You are yet to explain, how worshipping God, how being devout=Good. No, why would being devout to a truly just God, be the first thing on his list? If you can be good without believing in God - as I believe you can, and will continue to believe until you evidence that believing in God makes you any more moral - then would not morality itself, be the real priority on a truly just God's list? Rather than whether you believe in him, worship him, or are "Devout" to him or not?

eclolox Wrote:How are you deciding that good is simply better? Doesn't being good require a person to sacrifice themselves or their means? Why would someone give up their own? Can anyone "just be good", without any ultimate reason? Isn't that irrational? It would be like a partial suicide, at the very least - and if they gave themselves up completely (without any ultimate reason) it would be like suicide, wouldn't it?

I am talking about being a moral person, and morality in general. I personally believe, that what I personally believe to be moral, to be a good thing, I think morality is important. I never mentioned objective, or "ultimate" morality, I'm speaking in a subjective sense - I know of no evidence for objective morality. I don't believe there is any ultimate reason, but just as some people do what we, being good people, subjectively judge to be horribly immoral acts - such as the immorality of murder and rape for example - by those same subjective methods of judging those who are immoral, we also judge those who moral. Why is objective morality, required to be moral? Answer: It isn't. There is only evidence that anyone has ever judged morality subjectively, and that there are only subjective morals. As far as I'm aware anyway, I mean, unless you can enlighten me.

If you want to see that as not true morality because it's not objective, or "ultimate", then that's your problem, sorry.

ecolox Wrote:Again, by what standard? Being bad is easy to justify (so long as you avoid getting in trouble) - it means taking real benefits (that you can see and feel) that aren't yours or that aren't anyones that you know of (but that may be against the gods' wishes). This is inline with individual survival/livelihood - which is ultimately all an individual atheist has, right? It means acting in favor of yourself. It means acting with the goal of "winning" benefits. What rules are there to prevent competition on every front (whether it be winning through thievery or through consensual deals)?

There are those of us who, indeed, do genuinely wants to help others, even if it does no good to ourselves. Because we care, because we feel empathy. We feel our feelings through ourselves, yes (how else would we feel?) - if you call that selfish, so be it. Any caring you experience yourself, or others experience, exists with or without God, empathy exists with our without. If you claim that ,true morality only exists if God does, then you need to evidence that. If you claim that morality, is only true morality if it's objective, then you can see it that way if you want, but that's just your opinion, unless you can back it up with evidence.

You can't claim the moral high-ground over atheists, until you evidence that God exists, because otherwise all you've got is belief in God, without any reason to believe the belief is actually true.

If you miraculously managed to evidence God, then you'd also have to evidence how he's good, and how devoting yourself to him makes you any more moral, or how atheists aren't, etc.

ecolox Wrote:Could being devoted to just gods be anything other than Good? If someone is un-devoted to just gods, then how can they be good (or as you say "better")?

I didn't say that you can be better by being un-devoted. You took my usage of the word "better" out of context there.

If the just God doesn't actually exist, then in believing in him you are merely operating by a delusional belief...that isn't exactly "good" in my mind.

And also, you are still yet to show why being devoted is good, you are still yet to show that being "devoted" to God makes you any more moral.

[quote=ecolox]It is your belief that you will be destroyed, along with anyone who may remember you - right? If these entities are not headed towards destruction (as I thought your belief necessitated), where are they going?

No, it is not my belief that I will be destroyed. It is my belief that I will die, by whatever means that will be, and that there is no afterlife. But, my disbelief in the afterlife, is not part of the definition of atheism, I can still be an atheist and believe in the afterlife. It is just that I personally don't, I myself dismiss the afterlife claim, for the very same reason I dismiss the God claim: No evidence. No my atheism doesn't necessitate it, it is just very common for atheists to disbelieve in an afterlife, probably due to 1. Most reasons for believing in afterlife in the first place are religious, and 2. A lot of atheists (myself included) probably reject the afterlife claim, for the same reason that they reject the God claim: No evidence (as I do, as I said above).

Rhizo on these forums is an example of an exception to the general, he apparently believes in souls, and also, an afterlife, in spite of his his atheism.

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:No. Different atheists disbelieve for a number of different reasons. I myself don't believe because I know of no evidence.

ecolox Wrote:I see. Our existence is evidence of something though, isn't it?

Yes it is, it's self-evidence...of our existence. Evidence for God? No, not that I'm aware of, no.

EvF