Quote:Jesus atonement on the cross paid the debt/ransom of those that would come to faith in him. Because of his actions, sin no longer separates believers from God and they can now have a personal relationship with Him.

Sin continues to be something that we have to struggle with until either Jesus comes again or we leave this world (death).

Sin is our natural inclination to love things, people, actions, etc, in a way that shows we value those more than we value God.

I suppose you have a citation for all that in the OT?

(November 3, 2012 at 9:10 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I suppose you have a citation for all that in the OT?

No, that was my systematic theology so to speak....me summing up numerous verses.

If you would like a defense of the statement though I could provide one....I just figured no one cared about all the verses.

If you would like one let me know, although I probably won't flesh it out tonight.

(November 3, 2012 at 9:24 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote:

(November 3, 2012 at 9:10 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I suppose you have a citation for all that in the OT?

No, that was my systematic theology so to speak....me summing up numerous verses.

If you would like a defense of the statement though I could provide one....I just figured no one cared about all the verses.

If you would like one let me know, although I probably won't flesh it out tonight.

No, not necessary. Lots of people create their own religions. You have the same right as the rest of them.

(November 3, 2012 at 9:06 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: Ephesians 2:1–3 (NLT) — 1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

Other more literal translations use the phrasing

and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Then the good news....for those that place their faith in Jesus for salvation...

Ephesians 2:4–5 (NLT) — 4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)

"Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not.

It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some incomprehensible design or any passer-by whose rotting sores are held as some inexplicable claim upon him—it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintelligible debts, his only concept of a value is a zero: the good is that which is non-man." - Ayn Rand

(November 3, 2012 at 11:05 pm)genkaus Wrote: ...his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintelligible debts... - Ayn Rand

Actually the Bible teaches that man is unable to atone for his sins. Other religions teach that man can atone for his sins, but Christianity says to atone you must keep the law perfectly, love others perfectly and love God perfectly.

No human has been able to do this, so God himself became human, kept the law perfectly and loved God and humans perfectly....then he went to the cross as the sinless sacrifice and on the cross he took the sins of those who would come to faith in him upon his shoulders....the perfect became the most putrid being in the eyes of God and paid in the full the debt of sin for those that would believe in Him.

When believers put their faith in Jesus, God credits them the righteous life of Jesus (and remember there is no longer a penalty for their sins because Christ paid it).

Because I have faith in Jesus it's:
*just as if I never sinned
*just as if I had always obeyed.

Christianity says you can't atone for your sins, that's why you need a Savior....and salvation comes only through Him, the Son of God.

Kudos Jeff

So is Jeff saying that if you put your faith in Jesus you can do whatever you like no matter how immoral?

No. That's retrospective.

Well if you sin can that be forgiven or not? And are there unforgivable sins?

(November 4, 2012 at 6:41 am)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: So is Jeff saying that if you put your faith in Jesus you can do whatever you like no matter how immoral?

GREAT question!!!!

Yes and no.

Paul actually addresses the exact question in his letter to the church in Rome.

Romans 6:1–2 (NLT) — 1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it?


Romans 6:6–14 (NLT) — 6 We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7 For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8 And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9 We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus. 12 Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. 13 Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace.

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(November 4, 2012 at 7:01 am)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: Well if you sin can that be forgiven or not? And are there unforgivable sins?

Jesus paid, completely, for the sins of those that would come to place their faith in him. As a believer in Jesus I know that my past, present, and future sins have been paid for.

If I sin tomorrow....that's okay, it's been paid for.

Being a Christian means that you've stopped trying to earn your way into heaven. It means you realize your need for a Savior because you can't do it on your own! It means that you've placed your eternal destination in the hands of Jesus and rely on Him and His atoning death on the cross to take care of it all.

This frees you up to be nice to people! The gospel is that in Jesus, you have everything that you would ever need.....right now! In/through Christ you've been reconciled to God, and the worst thing that could ever happen to you (death) has been redeemed by Jesus so that all death would mean for you is that you get to see Jesus sooner!

When you have everything you need already, you're free to love people who don't deserve it. You're free to forgive people who hate you, you're free to show kindness to people who only show you disgust. You're free from trying to be enough, from trying to impress others, from trying to be accepted.

In Jesus you are accepted, in Jesus you are loved. Jesus is enough to satisfy your desires, Jesus has forgiven you when you were his enemy, Jesus has shown kindness to you when you were ill-deserving of it.....dwell in what Jesus has done for you and you'll find that these qualities will start showing up in your own life without you even trying.

1 John 4:9–10 (NLT) — 9 God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him. 10 This is real love—not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.