I hope you guys don't mind me posting from my blog here. I would love to discuss this. I think the idea really crystalizes one particular problem with Christianity, which may explain the relationship Christians, Muslims, and atheists have with one another. Religion is redeemable, I think, but this particular demon must be defeated. Here's what I have to say:

[link removed]

I want to give a little more time to the idea of God and why it's so problematic. I seem to be noticing a rift between American atheists and Muslim Arabs. Both groups are generally really good people. They are polite, friendly, and try to get along with everyone. But they just seem to talk past each other on the topic of religion. And more importantly to the topic at hand, the way in which they talk past one another illustrates an important point about religion.

I need a little more experience with Muslim communities. But every time I interact with Muslims I tend to think that they just can't comprehend the idea of someone not loving God. They just don't see why someone would reject God out of hand, for no obvious reason. So they revert to their own cultural beliefs and come to what I believe is a defensive conclusion drawn out of sheer bewilderment—American culture is anti-God.

Atheists, for their part, simply can't understand why anyone would adopt what appears to be an insane idea without any evidence. Which is really a perfectly reasonable conclusion in most philosophical categories. They don't understand why any Muslim would declare belief in a God they can't see and who obviously (to them) does little to help anyone. It's like believing in an imaginary friend who tells you to kill people, they think.

Is this really a clash of cultures? I believe not. I think it's two groups of people talking past one another because they simply don't have enough information on the other group. There are critical pieces of information missing.

Here is one critical piece of information which, from what I tentatively experience, is really unique to the West, and particularly America. It's what I call the Insanity Machine, and it is associated with religion.

Here's how it works. The Insanity Machine declares a philosophical proposition to be ultimately, fundamentally true or false, and no argument for or against the conclusion is allowed. Every attempt to argue against the conclusion is met by absurdities in defense of the Machine. But here's the kicker: these absurdities all appeal to existential crisis, which is common to all human beings, and cannot be successfully repudiated without appeal to another philosophical proposition that is ultimately, fundamentally true or false. The Insanity Machine then uses the concept of infinite punishment in hell to declare that it's proposition is essentially correct, and appeals to your fear of this hell to bully you into dropping your conclusion, whatever it may be, and settling for it's own.

Allow me to illustrate.

Human: "I am so happy to read that the Bible promotes love for all human beings. We should all be loving to one another."

Insanity Machine: "Bullshit. You have to hate Black people and Muslims or you're going to hell."

Human: "How can you say that?"

Insanity Machine: "Hate is actually love. God is love, and God hates people, so you have to hate people or you're going to hell."

Human: "Hate can't be love. That doesn't make any sense."

Insanity Machine: "It doesn't make sense because a demon is bewildering you. God has preordained who is going to heaven and hell for all eternity and nothing you do can change the fact that you're going to hell, unless you come to the conclusion that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior."

Human: "Why would God do something like that?"

Insanity Machine: "You can't argue with God. Everything I say has the authority of God and everything you say is from the devil. So adopt what I say or go to hell."

Human: "Jeez, what if a demon is bewildering me? How would I know?"

Insanity Machine: "You know because I'm telling you and I have authority. Believe me or go to hell."

Human: "Where do you get your authority?"

Insanity Machine: "From God."

Human: "How do I know it's the right God?"

Insanity Machine: "Because God says so, and if you don't believe in God you're going to hell for all eternity and you have no hope for anything. It doesn't matter if you know it's the right God because God has preordained that you will go to heaven or hell whether you know or not. Therefore you'd better know, or else you'll suffer in infinite burning pain for all eternity roasting and frying away in writhing agony forever."

Human: "What if this insanity machine is right? How would I know? I don't want to go to hell! What can I do? What on earth is the solution?"

Insanity Machine: "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?"

Human: "Well I think so but..."

Insanity Machine: "Shut up, fucktard, you haven't accepted anything because you disagree with me. Now accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior RIGHT NOW or I will PERSONALLY see to it that you roast and boil for ever and ever and your seething skin will flake and peel off and you will try to cry out in pain but you'll be in infinite darkness and you'll never be heard and every nightmare will come true and your eyeballs will boil and infinite pain forever."

Human: "Oh God! What do I do!"

Insanity Machine: "You worthless scum, I just told you what to do. Now do it. Do it, or else."

Human: "Christ! I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior! Please save me from hell! Please help me! I can't breathe I'm so frightened!"

Is it just me, or does this look an awful lot like a confession obtained under duress? The human being, of course, then goes on to use every excuse to proselytize and preach hatred and intolerance for the rest of his life, causing endless varieties of pain and suffering, and feeding into a cycle of fear which makes seeing the world correctly near impossible.

Now maybe I'm just ignorant. But I have never seen a Muslim bear any hint of an idea like the Insanity Machine. But in America, we see it all the time. Literally everywhere. It pervades our entire culture. It is by far the most insidious demon I've ever seen, and you only see it in Christianity. And if I'm right, and no Muslim has ever really looked this demon squarely in the face, it goes a long way to explain the rift between atheists and Muslims.

See, atheists are actually very courageous. Atheists are more courageous than I am, because while I for whatever crazy reason can't seem to stop talking about God, atheists are psychologically able to dismiss this ridiculous and disgusting Insanity Machine as absurd and reject it. They go on to spread their beliefs against intolerance, fear, hatred, and the agony of the soul-rape that is the Insanity Machine by telling everyone to avoid God at all costs. Unfortunately, people who have never heard of the Machine simply don't understand.

Anyway, regardless of what culture you're from, I feel it is of utmost importance to state this concept, and name it. I've named it the Insanity Machine. Now, hopefully, anyone who recognizes it in a wild-eyed, crazy demon-possessed Christian can simply say, "Hey, that looks an awful lot like the Insanity Machine to me. Care for a Xanax?"

(November 18, 2012 at 2:30 am)MultipleTentacles Wrote: I want to give a little more time to the idea of God and why it's so problematic. I seem to be noticing a rift between American atheists and Muslim Arabs. Both groups are generally really good people. They are polite, friendly, and try to get along with everyone. But they just seem to talk past each other on the topic of religion.

Americans "try to get along with everyone"? If you ask an Iraqi or an Afghanistani whether they see America as peaceful, I'll bet they have a different opinion.

Quote:Here is one critical piece of information which, from what I tentatively experience, is really unique to the West, and particularly America. It's what I call the Insanity Machine, and it is associated with religion.

You example may be true for some, but it's hardly true for all of Christianity. Christ himself only taught hell to his disciples, and not as leverage when evangelizing (preaching to the masses).

Daniel, teaching hell as leverage is fundamental to Christianity in America.

I had a long discussion on a facebook chat regarding a religiously charged Satanic image of a dead woman with a crucifix jammed in her throat. It was posted to a popular facebook group, so there were thousands of comments. EVERY SINGLE COMMENT from a recognizably Christian source was disgustingly evangelical. It was like they all had the same thought: "God sent me a dead woman so I could convert people to Christianity. What an opportunity!" What kind of a disgusting God would do this? "Hmm, I think I need to convert some more people today. How about I brutally murder a woman with a crucifix. Yeah, that should do it."

Contrast this to the Muslim responses. The only reason Muslims opened their mouths at all was because I was so disgusted with the Christian comments that I said along the lines of, "Of all the three Abrahamic religions, Christianity is by far the most disgusting." Then an atheist attacked Islam and said Islam was the worst, at which point a few Muslims felt obligated to say a few words in their defense. Which is perfectly understandable.

Obviously, there is something unique to Christianity here in America that makes the need for evangelizing more pressing. And based on my qualitative studies of the religion, I think it ties back to this idea of judgment, and how God somehow authorizes Christians to judge everyone by proxy. That is why I wrote this article.

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Thankfully Anglicans are a little more sane, generally. So your experience may be different. But is it because Anglicans have a genuinely different religious outlook, or is it because they don't take religion as seriously? I tend to think it's the latter.

(November 18, 2012 at 2:52 am)MultipleTentacles Wrote: Daniel, teaching hell as leverage is fundamental to Christianity in America.

Fundemental to who exactly? Catholics? Episcopals? Baptists? SDAs?

Teaching hell itself isn't an error, but it's not how we're supposed to evangelize.

Quote:Obviously, there is something unique to Christianity here in America that makes the need for evangelizing more pressing. And based on my qualitative studies of the religion, I think it ties back to this idea of judgment, and how God somehow authorizes Christians to judge everyone by proxy. That is why I wrote this article.

Well we aren't allowed to judge others, and in fact God doesn't want us to "change" others either.

America has a lot of issues - I've discussed at length before. For instance, when can I expect to see George W Bush, Dick Cheney, Barack Obama, Robert Gates and Leon Panetta put into gaol for their crimes? Link.

(November 18, 2012 at 2:42 am)Daniel Wrote: You example may be true for some, but it's hardly true for all of Christianity. Christ himself only taught hell to his disciples, and not as leverage when evangelizing (preaching to the masses).

First off, you need to prove that Jesus was a real person in the first place.

Good luck with that mate.

(November 18, 2012 at 3:20 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(November 18, 2012 at 2:42 am)Daniel Wrote: You example may be true for some, but it's hardly true for all of Christianity. Christ himself only taught hell to his disciples, and not as leverage when evangelizing (preaching to the masses).

First off, you need to prove that Jesus was a real person in the first place.

Common pattern on atheist forums:
Atheist: “The church taught (insert universally-condemned practice).”
Theist: “On the contrary, Jesus taught the opposite. And the church bases its beliefs on Jesus’ words.”
Atheist: “You must first prove Jesus exists.”

Can we stay on topic?

It is entirely on topic.

Before you quote his teachings you need to prove he was real

History and experience has taught me that all human beings are insane, we only differ on how we express that insanity. You can't blame people for being insane, it comes with the territory of being self aware, having emotions and intelligence.

(November 18, 2012 at 3:34 am)Undeceived Wrote: Common pattern on atheist forums:
Atheist: “The church taught (insert universally-condemned practice).”
Theist: “On the contrary, Jesus taught the opposite. And the church bases its beliefs on Jesus’ words.”
Atheist: “You must first prove Jesus exists.”

Can we stay on topic?

Yes, please. And here's what I'm really saying.

This particular phenomenon, which I've dubbed "The Insanity Machine," is to my mind probably a legitimate phenomenon. And a serious problem. The way to find out which religion it is a problem with is, I shall propose, a simple experimental test. First, identify the religions which worship the exact same God. Then, identify the Insanity Machine. Finally, figure out if there is any correlation between the presence of the Insanity Machine and any particular religion.

In fact, as I've stated, there is such a correlation. Jews and Muslims don't have any problem with hell. They really just don't care. For all the hateful things some Muslims may say about America, they do not seem to walk around with signs which say, "Are you an American? You're going to hell," in the same way in which Christians walk around with signs which say, "Are you gay? Muslim? Jewish? You're going to hell." And Jews? Forget about it. I literally have never heard a Jew even mention the word "hell."

And not only do Christians use hell as leverage, they see it as an ethical imperative to do so. They don't feel like they're doing their jobs unless they frighten someone with the idea of hell.

Now we can get into arguments about whether or not I'm making "generalizations" or "blanket statements," but really this line of argumentation is a distraction. EVERY statement about ANY concept is BY NECESSITY a generalization. If we admit to ANY meaning of ANY category, in this case Christianity, we must first find some way to determine if the idea of Christianity is at all a legitimate phenomenon, and then talk about its characteristics, which in this discussion involve The Insanity Machine. I think it's obvious from any point of view that Christianity is a legitimate phenomenon, and that we can in fact draw statistical generalities among Christians, and so let's now try to determine if the Insanity Machine is one of them. I believe it is.

Its the old carrot and stick approach. Heaven if you do as I say, Hell if you don't.
All with the added benefit that none of this happens after death when no-one can say whether it works or not.
Classic con.
How do people fall for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZJXNscksn0