Yes it certainly should, and the USA has a terrible minimum wage at present. That said, I still don't think it's a US Federal issue, because it affects the individual states far more. Richer states should be able to afford much higher minimum wages than pooer states, etc.

Abolishing money could work in a automated society, but we're not ready for it and it isn't ready for us.

(December 1, 2012 at 7:28 am)Tiberius Wrote: The entire point of money is to be a medium of exchange that everyone can use. It means people don't have to barter, and create long chains of bartering. We need bakers to bake bread, but when I want to have some bread, how do I make the purchase? Without money, I'd have to give the baker something else he wanted, which would require me to have the item he wanted, and to make things fair, it would have to be of roughly equal value. If I don't have anything the baker wants, I have to go and search for something he does want, do an exchange with that item, and then do the exchange with the baker. This can result in ridiculous chains of bartering which wastes everyone's time.

The solution is money. Everyone agrees to accept money in exchange for items, and then I can pay the baker for his bread, and the baker can exchange my money for something he wants.

There you go again with super consumer thinking, what if both the baker and you did not have to go to each other or barter. What if you could just get what you needed without having to buy or barter for it or even receive it from another person? Then we could all spend our live's focusing on whichever intellectual or entertainment hobby's we wish. Sadly people want to have a credit or barter system so they can say I have this and that and he doesn't. Annik was right the it would need to be an automated society, which people just aren't ready for. Have fun living life for simple greed.

(December 1, 2012 at 5:12 am)Tiberius Wrote:

(November 30, 2012 at 11:36 pm)cratehorus Wrote: abolish work....... abolish money..... both are outdated forms of slavery and have no purpose, or reason to exist in this century, or the next

Do you really believe the crap that comes out of your mouth, or do you just say it for effect?

yes, i really do beleive it, why? do you have questions? or are ya just being a crypto-fascist neo nazi teabagging klansmen??

Your meds are ineffective as usual.

(December 1, 2012 at 6:15 pm)JohnDG Wrote: There you go again with super consumer thinking

I prefer to think of it as modern and rational thinking.

Quote:what if both the baker and you did not have to go to each other or barter. What if you could just get what you needed without having to buy or barter for it or even receive it from another person?

Because the only society this could ever happen in would (as Annik correctly pointed out) be a fully automated one. All the work is done by robots, and the robots are repaired by robots (or themselves). Robots that have new functionality are all designed and built by robots too. The problem with this scenario is that even if it were possible, it is not going to happen in our lifetime, and quite possibly not in the lifetime of anyone in the next thousand years.

Quote:Then we could all spend our live's focusing on whichever intellectual or entertainment hobby's we wish. Sadly people want to have a credit or barter system so they can say I have this and that and he doesn't. Annik was right the it would need to be an automated society, which people just aren't ready for. Have fun living life for simple greed.

It's not that people want a credit or barter system in particular...it's that money is the best solution we have *right now* for the problems we suffer. It's all very well and good saying that robots would fix everything, but it's just not a viable solution at the moment. Aiming for it is rather silly; we don't even know if we can achieve it.

I don't live my life for simple greed. Sorry if I gave that impression, but understanding what money is and how it works does not mean I'm in love with it.

(December 1, 2012 at 7:56 pm)cratehorus Wrote: yes, i really do beleive it, why? do you have questions? or are ya just being a crypto-fascist neo nazi teabagging klansmen??

Yes, here's a question: How is money / work slavery?

Here's another: What the fuck is a crypto-fascist neo nazi teabagging klansmen, and why do you think I am one?

(December 2, 2012 at 2:55 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Here's another: What the fuck is a crypto-fascist neo nazi teabagging klansmen, and why do you think I am one?

Maybe because he's a : volslagen achterlijke walgelijk onbeschofte intellectueel achtergestelde randdebiel ...

(December 1, 2012 at 9:07 am)Daniel Wrote: Yes it certainly should, and the USA has a terrible minimum wage at present. That said, I still don't think it's a US Federal issue, because it affects the individual states far more. Richer states should be able to afford much higher minimum wages than pooer states, etc.

Generally, that's what already happens. Local minimum wage laws in places like San Fransisco or New York City have the minimum wage set much higher than the federal minimum wage. The reasoning behind it makes sense, too: it costs more to live in places like that then it does to live in suburban Oklahoma.

That being said, I'd love to see the minimum wage set to index based on inflation/cost of living and for that index to be somewhat regional. But I'm one of those leftist, pinko socialists.

Amazing how easily this thread was abducted by the two prophets from jaws of infinite stupidity.


Thank you min for posting this article.

This way of keeping wages so low that employees slide into poverty and thereby into state welfare dependence whilest still being employed - would be considered as a abuse of state institutions here and would therefor have legal consequences.

We have something called "Kurzarbeit" in Germany, meaning that a company in finacial trouble can shorten the contracts and wages for a brief period of time to get the company back on track again. But it is bound by law to keep the wages on a level which will not let the employees fall into poverty.

Generaly there are minimum wages throughout the entire economy here. But they are not legislated by the goverment.
The law only bindes companies to form "Tarifparteien" such as labor unions and representatives of the management - which then have to engage in debate to determine the minimum wage - which is then signed into the contract (Tarifvertrag). - This forces managment and employees into debate and therefor hinders decisions being made ignoring the arguments and needs of one participant.

(December 1, 2012 at 6:15 pm)JohnDG Wrote: There you go again with super consumer thinking, what if both the baker and you did not have to go to each other or barter. What if you could just get what you needed without having to buy or barter for it or even receive it from another person? Then we could all spend our live's focusing on whichever intellectual or entertainment hobby's we wish. Sadly people want to have a credit or barter system so they can say I have this and that and he doesn't. Annik was right the it would need to be an automated society, which people just aren't ready for. Have fun living life for simple greed.

cratehorus Wrote:yes, i really do beleive it, why? do you have questions? or are ya just being a crypto-fascist neo nazi teabagging klansmen??

I'm guessing you are both communists, then? I'm not trying to smear you; this is an honest observatiion. Especially you, cratehorus. You seem a little extreme calling everyone nazis.

As we can see here, to an extreme leftist, it is easy to call moderates fascists when they are not because they are still as far to the right of you as an actual fascist is to a moderate.