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**Ryantology** · (This post was last modified: December 15, 2012 at 2:11 pm by Ryantology.)

(December 15, 2012 at 1:37 pm)Tiberius Wrote:
(December 15, 2012 at 1:28 pm)Ryantology Wrote: I agree with this topic. I'm sick and tired of reading about crazy people taking bottles of scotch into schools and murdering 30 people with them. No false equivocation here.

Ever heard of drunk drivers causing massive pile-ups and causing the deaths of multiple people involved? Yeah, me too.

No false equivocation when you look at it that way.

Drunk driving fatalities are tragic accidents. I'm not willing to bet there are many people who plan, in advance, to drive drunk and cause a multi-car pileup which kills people.

Mass shootings never happen by accident.

Don't get me wrong, I do not favor a repeal of the second amendment, but I do believe that firearms should be heavily restricted and that strict, multi-level and recurring background checks should be passed before a person may legally possess one. It should not be more difficult to legally drive a car or receive a loan than it is obtain a lethal weapon, but in many parts of my country, this is definitely true.

A Theist · December 15, 2012 at 2:12 pm

(December 15, 2012 at 1:20 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I'm just curious A Theist, because I'm not entirely sure, are you in favor of Alcohol being criminalized? You are making the case for it being much worse than Marijuana or Guns. Guns and Alcohol both kill more people than Marijuana. It seems in a post arguing for consistency you either need to be in favor of all three being legal or all three being illegal or admit to being inconsistent. That's why I believe all three should be legal.

...don't know, not really sure how I feel about criminalizing alcohol....there's definitely an argument to be made that it should be, or at least regulated seeing that alcohol is far more deadly than guns and drugs...alcohol related deaths kill more people in the U.S. than all the drugs and guns combined. I don't see the inconsistency here, (guns, alcohol and drugs make a deadly combination), but I do see an inconsistency with gun control advocates screaming about more regulation while completely ignoring the far more deadly alcohol related violence.

**CapnAwesome** · December 15, 2012 at 2:18 pm

(December 15, 2012 at 2:12 pm)A Theist Wrote: ...don't know, not really sure how I feel about criminalizing alcohol....there's definitely an argument to be made that it should be, or at least regulated seeing that alcohol is far more deadly than guns and drugs...alcohol related deaths kill more people in the U.S. than all the drugs and guns combined. I don't see the inconsistency here, (guns, alcohol and drugs make a deadly combination), but I do see an inconsistency with gun control advocates screaming about more regulation while completely ignoring the far more deadly alcohol related violence.

I totally agree with you that it's inconsistent on their part. I don't think people who uniformly take left-wing positions think about or even value consistency. It's a random potshot of things they think (or more likely someone has told them) will make society better.

I think the only consistent position in to have them all legal (or illegal). On the flip side of your argument, how can you be in favor of having guns being legal, and not marijuana which kills far less people than either alcohol and guns?

Dee Dee Ramone · December 15, 2012 at 2:23 pm

(December 15, 2012 at 2:12 pm)A Theist Wrote: ...don't know, not really sure how I feel about criminalizing alcohol....there's definitely an argument to be made that it should be, or at least regulated seeing that alcohol is far more deadly than guns and drugs...alcohol related deaths kill more people in the U.S. than all the drugs and guns combined. I don't see the inconsistency here, (guns, alcohol and drugs make a deadly combination), but I do see an inconsistency with gun control advocates screaming about more regulation while completely ignoring the far more deadly alcohol related violence.

I think you do have a point here. In general I think regulation is better than criminalization.

For the rest, I think alcohol = drugs...but since almost everybody uses it, hardly anyone wants to debate it that way.

A Theist · December 15, 2012 at 2:30 pm

(December 15, 2012 at 2:10 pm)Ryantology Wrote:
(December 15, 2012 at 1:37 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Ever heard of drunk drivers causing massive pile-ups and causing the deaths of multiple people involved? Yeah, me too.

No false equivocation when you look at it that way.

Drunk driving fatalities are tragic accidents. I'm not willing to bet there are many people who plan, in advance, to drive drunk and cause a multi-car pileup which kills people.

Mass shootings never happen by accident.

Don't get me wrong, I do not favor a repeal of the second amendment, but I do believe that firearms should be heavily restricted and that strict, multi-level and recurring background checks should be passed before a person may legally possess one. It should not be more difficult to legally drive a car or receive a loan than it is obtain a lethal weapon, but in many parts of my country, this is definitely true.

"Drunk driving fatalities are tragic accidents. I'm not willing to bet there are many people who plan, in advance, to drive drunk and cause a multi-car pileup which kills people."....however unintended, people who drink and drive are aware of the potential consequences even before they get behind the wheel of a vehicle....I don't consider them guiltless.

"Mass shootings never happen by accident."...and even more violence can be attributed to alcohol....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11...21900.html

"Don't get me wrong, I do not favor a repeal of the second amendment, but I do believe that firearms should be heavily restricted "...seeing that alcohol can be attributed to more death and violence than drugs and guns combined, would you also favor heavily restricting the use and purchasing and selling of alcohol as well?

LastPoet · December 15, 2012 at 2:32 pm

Just to clarify one more thing, I'm not advocating for complete prohibition or complete freedom on any of these things (drugs, alcohol and guns), I'm saying they all should be allowed with proper regulation. As to the how this regulation should be done, that's another nine yards of discussion and a job for legislators.

TaraJo · December 15, 2012 at 2:36 pm

(December 15, 2012 at 2:12 pm)A Theist Wrote: ...don't know, not really sure how I feel about criminalizing alcohol....there's definitely an argument to be made that it should be, or at least regulated seeing that alcohol is far more deadly than guns and drugs...alcohol related deaths kill more people in the U.S. than all the drugs and guns combined. I don't see the inconsistency here, (guns, alcohol and drugs make a deadly combination), but I do see an inconsistency with gun control advocates screaming about more regulation while completely ignoring the far more deadly alcohol related violence.

We tried it already and it was a monumental failure. The 18th amendment was added to specifically prohibit alcohol in the United States. 14 years later, we passed the 21st amendment which repealed it. That 14 year window gave rise to bootlegging gangsters like Al Capone and were we to criminalize alcohol entirely, it would probably do the same thing again.

But a few years ago, I remember finding an interesting study (I'll have to see if I can look it up; it's been a while). They polled high school and middle school kids and found that most of them had an easier time getting marijuana then the did alcohol. The reason is simple: alcohol is legal and regulated but marijuana is illegal so its entire market is unregulated, even if it is being forced underground.

**CapnAwesome** · December 15, 2012 at 3:11 pm

(December 15, 2012 at 2:02 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Alcohol & drug abuse primarily do harm to the person itself and although in many cases third persons can get harmed by it, no one does so with criminal intent to harm others. That is why for example a person that kills another as a result of DUI is charged with manslaughter.

Gun abuse on the other hand, barring accidents that can be minimized by regulation (mandatory education on gun handling & storage), are the result of criminal intent for the simple reason that, guns to all effects are made to be used to injure (at least) its target. That is why if one kills someone else with a gun, one is charged minimally with 2nd degree murder.

That is why your comparision is silly, you are grasping to some warped idea that somehow it is inconsistent to regulate gun usage when alcohol does more harm. I hope I made it clear enough.

I think you make a decent point, however one study found alcohol to be involved in 34% of all murders. That's an enormous percentage of murders, alcohol can almost certainly increase or even cause criminal intent, something that guns are incapable of doing.

LastPoet · December 15, 2012 at 4:24 pm

(December 15, 2012 at 3:11 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I think you make a decent point, however one study found alcohol to be involved in 34% of all murders. That's an enormous percentage of murders, alcohol can almost certainly increase or even cause criminal intent, something that guns are incapable of doing.

Can you link the study? Its no big deal, but I like to look at data.

Anyway, I disagree that guns are incapable of giving a person enough confidence to commit a murder. A person with a gun on his hands may feel empowered enough to face another that otherwise avoid without said gun.

**The Grand Nudger** · (This post was last modified: December 15, 2012 at 4:32 pm by The Grand Nudger.)

(December 15, 2012 at 2:30 pm)A Theist Wrote: "Don't get me wrong, I do not favor a repeal of the second amendment, but I do believe that firearms should be heavily restricted "...seeing that alcohol can be attributed to more death and violence than drugs and guns combined, would you also favor heavily restricting the use and purchasing and selling of alcohol as well?

Already been tried, and still (to some extent) in effect. Didn't work (still doesn't work). Hilariously, it's at least marginally more difficult to get your hands on a 6 pack of beer (as a minor) than it is to get your hands on narcotics or an automatic rifle. Neither the drug or the arms dealer is going to ask you for ID. Theyre both clearly willing to provide the service you're seeking (it's their business, after all) while the store clerk may require some "coaxing"......

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