(March 13, 2013 at 8:24 pm)apophenia Wrote: I think you should go on a fast now, John, because you've obviously got shit in your brain. Apparently you missed the words credible and scientific in my earlier post,

I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to summerqueen's request. Since she kudo'd your internet quotes, it seemed the standards had been reduced.

Quote:of which some shingle hung out by an alternative medicine practitioner doesn't count.

I linked to articles by an M.D., a man who has college biology professor on his resume, and Scientific American. Rayaan linked to a write-up of a report presented at the annual scientific sessions of the American College of Cardiology. Your characterization is incorrect.

Here's an interesting bit of science:
Modern medicine is the third leading cause of death in the US

(March 13, 2013 at 6:10 pm)John V Wrote: Fasting is like chiropractic. Mainstream medicine looks down on it because they didn't invent it, but it works, so it's going to stick around and gain popularity.

Mainstream medicine looks down on chiropractic because at best it does absolutely nothing that licensed physical therapy couldn't, and at worst could do irreparable damage. Many chiropractic practitioners also make bogus claims about what exactly it can do for you, leading people to not seek the treatment they should from actual medical professionals.

I'm having a hard time with the links you provided - partially because they are all from two sources, only one of which looks like it has anything to do with a medical establishment, and partially because when I look up toxemia, the answers I'm getting don't jive with what he's saying. Also, a lot of yelling about basic symptoms people get in general. The amount of over-the-counter headache medication sold is not an indicator of a low-level problem in all of society. Headache is a common symptom of many ailments. In fact, there are many symptoms that are indicative of many ailments, including fatigue. This is why I told Fallen that just because his symptoms match one particular ailment it doesn't mean he has that ailment. It's merely a starting point to further testing, which is why he should go to a medical professional who will perform the tests he wants, and he should also have the tests the doctor wants done as well. While you can certainly communicate your symptoms to your doctor better than anyone else, your doctor has the training and access to the technology to find the solution you need.

I'm not seeing any links to any studies that bolster his opinion, just tripe like this:

Quote:Notice I said scientific, not medical. The mind set which doctors live in is: treatment of illness, once it is firmly established and obvious. Your doctor is the wrong person to talk to regarding a condition of maximum vitality or even regarding prevention of illness. Blue Cross cannot be billed for that, not yet anyway. Therefore, your physician is unlikely to know anything about the benefits of fasting, and when physicians find themselves not knowing about something (which is intolerable to a doctor's ego), you can be sure they will make up an opinion, usually a negative one.

Contrary to what you believe, doctors are not all in the pocket of big pharma. While we're speaking in anecdotes here, let me just say that I never seem to have these problems you people have. I have a great relationship with my doctor, who is also my gynocologist, and never once has her solution simply been "take this pill" except in the case of birth control (because, hurdy-derp-derp, that's pretty much all there is to it unless we wish to add condoms, which we didn't, hence Pill), or in the case where simple anti-biotics could fix something (UTI). My allergy problems, my sinus problems, my asthma is all discussed at length, the symptoms and causes explored and discovered, and an active self-responsible solution found that includes situation or life changes instead of just "take this pill/inhaler/etc". Have I had bad experiences with doctors? Absolutely - one of them caused me to end up in the hospital with pneumonia because she was dismissive of my insistence that it wasn't just a "bad cold". It's pretty easy to tell a good doctor from bad, though. Dismissal and refusal to explain things are the indications - not the prescription of drugs approved by the FDA. If you're leery, fucking ask for the reason why you're being prescribed a pill and discuss alternatives and tell them why you don't want to take it. They will either explain why it's more legitimate for you to take the pill, or work with you to find those alternatives.

My boss is currently working next to me so I haven't had time to read Rayaan's links. Hopefully they have something more useful than pseudo-science masking itself as a biology lesson.

They never sound as good after the detox.
I'm not suggesting it's a causal thing though.

(March 14, 2013 at 9:22 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: Mainstream medicine looks down on chiropractic because at best it does absolutely nothing that licensed physical therapy couldn't,

Can you provide the scientific evidence of this?

Quote:and at worst could do irreparable damage.

As noted and supported with scientific evidence, mainstream medicine is the third leading cause of death in America. How does chiropractic compare?

Quote:Many chiropractic practitioners also make bogus claims about what exactly it can do for you, leading people to not seek the treatment they should from actual medical professionals.

True, as some doctors keep people away fromo chiropractors, some chiropractors may keep people away from doctors.

Quote:The amount of over-the-counter headache medication sold is not an indicator of a low-level problem in all of society.

Scientific evidence?

Quote:Headache is a common symptom of many ailments. In fact, there are many symptoms that are indicative of many ailments, including fatigue. This is why I told Fallen that just because his symptoms match one particular ailment it doesn't mean he has that ailment.

Agreed.

Quote:It's merely a starting point to further testing, which is why he should go to a medical professional who will perform the tests he wants, and he should also have the tests the doctor wants done as well. While you can certainly communicate your symptoms to your doctor better than anyone else, your doctor has the training and access to the technology to find the solution you need.

Agreed up to the solution part. Mainstream medicine has some excellent diagnostic tools. Really expensive, but excellent.

Quote:I'm not seeing any links to any studies that bolster his opinion, just tripe like this:

I'm not seeing any links to studies that bolster your opinion, just tripe from quackwatch and similar sources.

Quote:Notice I said scientific, not medical. The mind set which doctors live in is: treatment of illness, once it is firmly established and obvious. Your doctor is the wrong person to talk to regarding a condition of maximum vitality or even regarding prevention of illness. Blue Cross cannot be billed for that, not yet anyway. Therefore, your physician is unlikely to know anything about the benefits of fasting, and when physicians find themselves not knowing about something (which is intolerable to a doctor's ego), you can be sure they will make up an opinion, usually a negative one.

Quote:Contrary to what you believe, doctors are not all in the pocket of big pharma.

The doctor who wrote the above is one of the few who isn't.

Quote:My boss is currently working next to me so I haven't had time to read Rayaan's links. Hopefully they have something more useful than pseudo-science masking itself as a biology lesson.

Hopefully you can come up with something more yourself.

It's interesting that you make a knee-jerk reaction against, when you don't have scientific evidence against.

This board is bizarre. Suggest fruit and vegetable juices, and scientific evidence is demanded. Ask about taking ecstasy, and anecdotal evidence is peachy-keen.

(March 14, 2013 at 7:57 am)John V Wrote:

(March 13, 2013 at 8:24 pm)apophenia Wrote: I think you should go on a fast now, John, because you've obviously got shit in your brain. Apparently you missed the words credible and scientific in my earlier post,

I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to summerqueen's request. Since she kudo'd your internet quotes, it seemed the standards had been reduced.

Which is why your post referred exclusively to things I'd written, and contained no mention of summerqueen.
And now you're suggesting that you get to decide what somebody's kudo means? Seriously, fuck off.
If you think making a self-serving interpretation of a fucking kudo is an example of good thinking and argument, think again.

(March 14, 2013 at 7:57 am)John V Wrote:

Quote:of which some shingle hung out by an alternative medicine practitioner doesn't count.

I linked to articles by an M.D., a man who has college biology professor on his resume, and Scientific American. Rayaan linked to a write-up of a report presented at the annual scientific sessions of the American College of Cardiology. Your characterization is incorrect.

I pointed out the reasons his opinion wasn't credible, and the articles referenced do not support your claim. My characterization was quite accurate. But nice bit of misrepresenting me by not quoting in full.

I'll repeat, since this last post does nothing but substantiate the earlier charge. You have shit for brains.

---

John V Wrote:This board is bizarre. Suggest fruit and vegetable juices, and scientific evidence is demanded.

You didn't simply "suggest fruit and vegetable juices," you made a claim about the benefits of fasting and juicing which is a controversial medical claim.
If you had just said, "Eat your veggies, they're good for you," none of this would have happened. But by all means, continue to misrepresent things.
(And I'm not going to fault you for this, but the Ecstasy thread was in the "off topic" section of the forum, whereas this thread is in the sciences section, and is in response to someone soliciting practical medical advice.)

(March 14, 2013 at 10:46 am)apophenia Wrote: Which is why your post referred exclusively to things I'd written, and contained no mention of summerqueen.

You're right, my first post didn't say that - that's why I clarified it for you. You're really defensive.

Quote:And now you're suggesting that you get to decide what somebody's kudo means? Seriously, fuck off.

Er, it generally means the person found your post worthwhile. I don't think I'm being unreasonable in my interpretation, but she can clarify if she wants. Heck, maybe she just liked the fonts you used, but thinks your quotes don't prove a thing.

Quote:If you think making a self-serving interpretation of a fucking kudo is an example of good thinking and argument, think again.

Even without the kudo, your use of quotes from websites rather than links to real studies opened the door for me to use the same. People can throw both away if they wish.

(March 14, 2013 at 7:57 am)John V Wrote: I pointed out the reasons his opinion wasn't credible,

You gave your opinion.

Quote:and the articles referenced do not support your claim.

True, we've only seen support for cardiovascular and other benefits of fasting, but not specifically for heavy metal detoxification.

Quote:I'll repeat, since this last post does nothing but substantiate the earlier charge. You have shit for brains.

Blah, blah.

(March 14, 2013 at 7:57 am)John V Wrote: Here's an interesting bit of science:
Modern medicine is the third leading cause of death in the US

That's a fascinating and irrelevant red herring, John. First, that the U.S. health care system has some problems is apropos of nothing. Second, in determining whether the number of iatrogenic deaths is a problem, you have to compare the number of such deaths to the number of deaths in similar patients under different treatment, either an alternative medical treatment, or no treatment at all. I await the "interesting" figures on that question, but am not holding my breath. Nor am I going to run the information down myself, for obvious reasons. (Not that you'd be able to properly evaluate it even if I did.)

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/inde...ropractic/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropracti...rch_status

Links to the studies discussed included within those links. Hopefully you don't need to be instructed on how to click on them. SBM is a good site for parsing out such studies and getting a "real world" understanding of what's described within.

Please, also, explain to me instead how a common symptom which could have many causes or be related to many different diseases is indicative of an underlying case of toxicity in the population. That's his claim, not mine, and he needs to provide the evidence for it - not just say that doctors dismiss it.

(March 14, 2013 at 11:07 am)John V Wrote:

(March 14, 2013 at 10:46 am)apophenia Wrote: If you think making a self-serving interpretation of a fucking kudo is an example of good thinking and argument, think again.

Even without the kudo, your use of quotes from websites rather than links to real studies opened the door for me to use the same. People can throw both away if they wish.

No, it did not. My claim was that I would post "information on the topic" if I found it. You're welcome to dispute whether what I posted constitutes information or not.
You claimed that juicing and fasting had certain medical benefits; a claim still lacking any credible scientific support, which is the relevant standard for medical claims.
If you don't see the difference between the two claims, then you really need to see a doctor.

I clicked on Rayaan's links.

From Science Daily -

Quote:"The confirmation among a new set of patients that fasting is associated with lower risk of these common diseases raises new questions about how fasting itself reduces risk or if it simply indicates a healthy lifestyle."

Bolding mine. Correlation is not causation.

Quote:"Fasting causes hunger or stress. In response, the body releases more cholesterol, allowing it to utilize fat as a source of fuel, instead of glucose. This decreases the number of fat cells in the body," says Dr. Horne. "This is important because the fewer fat cells a body has, the less likely it will experience insulin resistance, or diabetes."

A condition which could also be achieved with proper diet and exercise in an otherwise healthy body.

Quote:While the results were surprising to researchers, it's not time to start a fasting diet just yet. It will take more studies like these to fully determine the body's reaction to fasting and its effect on human health. Dr. Horne believes that fasting could one day be prescribed as a treatment for preventing diabetes and coronary heart disease.

Bolding also mine, my assumption being that it would be suggested to patients with a very high risk of these problems if it were found to be a legitimate solution, not something the population as a whole should do.

His google link seemed mostly come back to articles about the heart health study. Mind you, none of this is related to "toxins", but specific problems, and none of it related to heavy metals.

And then there's this link, which also popped up in the list: http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/is_fasting_healthy

Quote:It sounds so simple - no choices, no counting calories, no cooking. Just say 'no' to food, and start fasting for quick weight loss and other health benefits.

After all, Beyonce did it. She said she lost 20 pounds by fasting (and using a concoction of syrup, lemon juice, water and cayenne pepper) for her role in Dreamgirls.

But what about the rest of us mortals? We wonder:

Is fasting an effective way to lose weight?
Can fasting really help with medical conditions such as heart disease, high blood pressure, asthma, arthritis and other auto-immune disorders?
Will fasting help you live longer?
And finally, is fasting healthy? Although fasting has been practiced for thousands of years, the question is still a subject of intense medical debate. WebMD consulted experts on weight loss and fasting for some answers.

Quote:If you weed through all the controversy, you'll find that most medical experts agree on one thing: fasting is not a healthy weight loss tool.
...
Even some proponents of fasting for other medical purposes do not support fasting for weight loss. Some say it can actually make weight problems worse.

Quote:Even worse for dieters is that fasting for weight loss "distracts people from the real message of how to lose weight: lower fat intake, eat five fruits and vegetables a day, drink water and stop drinking other liquids, walk 30 minutes a day, and get more sleep," says Fernstrom, an associate professor of psychiatry, epidemiology, and surgery at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.

In addition, other practices that are often combined with fasting for weight loss, such as colon cleansing, carry their own risks.

"Fasts are sometimes accompanied with enemas to cleanse your intestinal tract, and that can be very dangerous," says Fernstrom. "The intestinal tract has a lot of good bacteria. When you are changing that balance, the good bacteria are affected, too."

Quote:"There is no scientific evidence it will detox the body. The issue of fasting to cleanse the body has no biological basis because the body is real good at that by itself," says Fernstrom. "The liver is a natural detox center; the lungs, the colon, the kidneys, [the lymph glands] and the skin get rid of toxins."

And then of course they have a guy who seems to have all the right credentials...and a little poking around also shows he has something to sell - his "cure". What was that great quote off the movie "Ray"? "Scratch a lie, find a thief." Guess who also features in SBM? Yup. Joel Fuhrman - the guy webMD cites as being in support of fasting as a cure for just about anything.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/inde...our-fault/

My father owns a juicer. He likes getting his fruits and vegetables that way - much as several of my friends prefer to also do so by making protein smoothies with fruits. If that's how you get around eating your greens, go for it. But juicing - juice fasting - doesn't have any certified benefits except as a temporary yoyo weightloss approach akin to only eating cucumbers (or apples or what have you) for a given length of time.

Fallen, get to a doctor and get tested for what the doctor and you think you might have. When you get your answer, discuss possible solutions with your GP.

Please remember that when treatments have been properly tested and found to have efficacy, they stop getting the label of pseudo-science and become simply part of science. That's how it works. They are not labeled "pseudo-science" because the doctors can't make money off of it. Drug companies make money off their drugs - not doctors in general, unless specifically paid off by those companies. Meanwhile I notice that all these woo-promoters always have a book to sell, accessories to sell, a cure to sell...and a lot of it doesn't fall under insurance. Who is robbing whom?