(March 14, 2013 at 2:12 am)EGross Wrote: I always preferred less sex and more action in my stories!

So the Toldot Yeshu is that kind of story then?

Yes. Some are more concerned with the sex bits (the birth story) than others (who begin from the point that John the Baptist gets arressted and we can get to the chopping!)

(March 14, 2013 at 9:45 am)EGross Wrote: Yes. Some are more concerned with the sex bits (the birth story) than others (who begin from the point that John the Baptist gets arressted and we can get to the chopping!)

That sounds fun.

Is there any version online in English?

My copy of Candida Moss' "The Myth of Persecution" arrived today.

The subtitle is "How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom."

I am not stating there may not have been a man named Jesus. I am simply stating that there is no proof that man was the "divine" son of god.

I'm not suggesting that you wade back through the whole thread but, yeah. We've already been there.

There had to be hundreds of schleppers named "jesus." So what? There is not only no evidence that any of them came back from the dead but no one in the first century seems to have even heard the tale.

(March 16, 2013 at 1:46 am)Minimalist Wrote: My copy of Candida Moss' "The Myth of Persecution" arrived today.

The subtitle is "How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom."

Let me know if she has any ideas why they wanted so many martyrs.

Maybe they were used to having a lot of deities so decided to have umpteen saints as the equivalent.

The idea for suffering in general for your faith was certainly part of the theology.

If you read the first couple of chapters of the book ofMatthew, that some claim was a later add-on (the birth story), the fact that they also included thousands of unconfirmed butchered babies (that no other source, not even a Jewish one supports), it fits nicely in to this same need for persecution.

And in the Jewish faith, one of the greatest honors is to be killed while sanctifuing god's name (kiddush HaShem). And how ironic that the Christians would be persecuting the Jews for the next few centuries, after they gave up on being persecuted themselves! (Although, every December in the USA, the Christians cry out that there is a "War on Christmas", to harken back to the good old days!) There is a good book on this by Joel Carmichael called "The Satanizing of the Jews", which brings forth the theological and spiritual need for this as a way of promoting the faith - like demonizing one group in order to promote your own agenda.

Moss begins with a discussion about the origins of the word "martyr" and the rather ludicrous notion that xtians "invented" martyrdom. It would seem that they did invent the word - martyr being taken from a Greek word meaning someone who testifies in court - but the concept of a "noble death" was well known to the Greeks and Romans. Several examples are given including Socrates.

In a review of the Book of Daniel, Moss notes that there was a fundamental change in outlook because the earlier prophets had promised that adherence to god's laws would give them earthly success. An afterlife was still a rather fuzzy concept in the ANE but not among the Greeks who were somewhat more intellectually advanced. However, "god's" promises weren't working out so well - as any fool could plainly see - so a shift to the more eschatological vision was necessary. As Moss puts it, "Scholars hypothesize that this idea of delayed judgement and eschatological reward developed because those promises of immediate reward were constantly unfulfilled. As a result and in order to avoid the conclusion that god was either notoriously unreliable or fundamentally incompetent, the idea of future eschatolgical reward and punishment emerged. Injustices that were not righted in one's lifetime would be settled at the end of time."

How convenient...and of course, good enough to fool the dolts!

(March 20, 2013 at 12:13 pm)Minimalist Wrote: As a result and in order to avoid the conclusion that god was either notoriously unreliable or fundamentally incompetent, the idea of future eschatolgical reward and punishment emerged. Injustices that were not righted in one's lifetime would be settled at the end of time."

Always jam tomorrow where God is concerned.