(March 30, 2013 at 5:19 pm)Godschild Wrote: If Christ had sinned He would have known He could not be the perfect sacrifice, so why would He have suffered through the crucifixion?

MK Wrote:To trick you that he was sinless and make you buy the story that he was the perfect sacrifice.

What possible reason would He want to trick anyone, that makes no sense to me?

GC Wrote:He also would have had to know the Father would not have raised Him from the Grave.

MK Wrote:Well what if he could raise himself being God or 1/3 of God and all?

Again, why would God want to trick anyone, an omniscient and omnipotent being would have no reason to trick humanity. The God Head (Yahway) could not go against itself, Jesus addressed this very thing when the pharisees called Him satan. The God Head is of one mind in three persons. This is what Jesus said about a divided kingdom.
Matt. 12:25 And knowing their thoughts He said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid to waste; and any city or house divided against itself shall not stand. 26) "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? 27) "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges. 28) "But if I cast out by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
This statement show that Jesus could not go against the Father.

GC Wrote:There are also many scriptures stating God can not lie.

MK Wrote:But if God can sin, surely he can lie. So he can be lying about not being able to lie

If God lied He would sin, God says He will not be in the presence of sin, this eliminates the possibility of God sinning, god could not live with Himself if He sinned. This is another way through scripture to show God does not lie.

(March 30, 2013 at 9:18 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Does the amount of "drich" you have to add to make a analogy seem to work ever occur to you?

Does it occour to you that the 'Drich' being added is to bring your analogy up to par with what they bible says about what is being discussed?

Your analogy only repersented 1/2 of what is being discussed. If that is all you understand fine, but do not take offence when it is corrected to include the whole biblical account.

Quote:But you don't have what I want drich.....

what I want in this story (I playing the role of satan) is control over your Heart and your mind. What you own is of little concern unless it can be used to help control or direct you.

Quote:Your god sounds slightly less unique and immenently less powerful all of a sudden.

Good. Now maybe start building a biblicaly consistant picture of God and finish tearing down the one you have been carring around with you. (The one you have found to be untrue.)

Quote:You may be, I'm not.

Then you have lived a life without sin? For everytime you sin you eat another 'apple.' Remember Adam's sin was not physicaly eating an apple it was disobeying God. Which is exactly what you do each and everytime you sin.

Quote:Godman gets fatigued...meh, not worth the time. If your godman could see through it how tempting could it have been.

I can see through it now, and even so with this ablity to see what God would expect me to endure, (Death on the cross and maybe even more) and what satan offered, it is still a temptation one that I do not know I would be able to resist.

Quote:Sure, I don't ask people what they pay for some gift they give me, but you don't have to ask in this case - you've been told-, and if someone told me that they paid in scapegoating, I'd refuse the "gift". Love, no, there's no love there, if someone is offering me that.

Then that is between you and God to reconsile. Because i can not make you see love where love abounds. Maybe God has harden your heart to love till you humble yourself and ask to see it.

(March 30, 2013 at 3:03 pm)Undeceived Wrote: That is how Jesus was able to resist the temptation--with perspective. Satan offered him kingdoms for his earthly life, but Jesus understood the grand plan: after he died and resurrected, he would be back in heaven with dominion over all. Christians face a remarkably similar temptation. We can seek the material pleasures of this world or we can place our treasure in heaven, where "moths and vermin [do not] destroy, and where thieves [do not] break in and steal" (Matt 6:19).

So, the reason Satan failed to tempt Christ was that he didn't make promises which were so stupidly grandiose that one would have to be brain-damaged to think they could really ever receive?

Jesus probably just laughed at Satan trying to play his own game like that.

(March 30, 2013 at 9:39 pm)Drich Wrote: Maybe God has harden your heart to love till you humble yourself and ask to see it.

How convenient. Why is that always the way? Believers always make these outrageous claims to know what god wants for humanity, then when the tough questions come into play they state maybes and ifs that allow them to continue to believe that their deity is doing the right thing.

It would be like someone asking me why they cannot see leprechauns when I can, and I would inform them that the leprechauns have placed them under a magical Irish spell until they can learn to love the Irish culture. It is ridiculous the way believers think, pretending they are smart when the opposite is true.

(March 30, 2013 at 9:46 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote:

(March 30, 2013 at 9:39 pm)Drich Wrote: Maybe God has harden your heart to love till you humble yourself and ask to see it.

How convenient. Why is that always the way? Believers always make these outrageous claims to know what god wants for humanity, then when the tough questions come into play they state maybes and ifs that allow them to continue to believe that their deity is doing the right thing.

It would be like someone asking me why they cannot see leprechauns when I can, and I would inform them that the leprechauns have placed them under a magical Irish spell until they can learn to love the Irish culture. It is ridiculous the way believers think, pretending they are smart when the opposite is true.

It wasn't a 'tough question' sport Read what rythm wrote. He said he did not see love in the sacerfice of Christ. If one can not see love there is no question. that person has a hard heart toward what others have identified as love.

My suggestion was for him to take his hard heart and ask God to soften it for him.

For, God has been known to Harden a heart to make a person or people endure hardships so they may know God better. Who knows maybe rythm asked God to proove himself to him at some point, and all of this is what it will take for rythm to see God.

---

Also the Quest is at an end Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ is the same Yesterday, Today and forever. Jesus is still God.

(March 30, 2013 at 9:39 pm)Drich Wrote: Does it occour to you that the 'Drich' being added is to bring your analogy up to par with what they bible says about what is being discussed?

Does it ever occur to you that some of us are interested in the biblical narrative for entirely different reasons than your own, have heard this drivel before, and drive right through it because it's been done to death? The moment you stop assuming that you have to "fill people in" your posts will become that much less inane.

Quote:Your analogy only repersented 1/2 of what is being discussed. If that is all you understand fine, but do not take offence when it is corrected to include the whole biblical account.

No, my analogy represented the entirety of the reality of the scenario. You don't get my farm just because I ate your apple.

Quote: what I want in this story (I playing the role of satan) is control over your Heart and your mind. What you own is of little concern unless it can be used to help control or direct you.

You're playing satan as ineptly as satan plays satan in your little fairy tale. Blundering idiot aside the triumphant hero.

Quote:Good. Now maybe start building a biblicaly consistant picture of God and finish tearing down the one you have been carring around with you. (The one you have found to be untrue.)

What I've found to be untrue is the very notion of god, surely this has to be apparent to you by now. You could weave any story you like around a god and it won't alter my opinion of gods - unless the story you wove was rooted in reality, not your hymnal, not your fantasies. Get that through your head.

Quote:Then you have lived a life without sin? For everytime you sin you eat another 'apple.' Remember Adam's sin was not physicaly eating an apple it was disobeying God. Which is exactly what you do each and everytime you sin.

Yeah, just like everyone else, what with sin being made up bullshit - part and parcel with the made up god shit.

Quote:I can see through it now, and even so with this ablity to see what God would expect me to endure, (Death on the cross and maybe even more) and what satan offered, it is still a temptation one that I do not know I would be able to resist.

If that's how you see yourself then so be it. Apparently I just don't find the same things to be tempting.

Quote:Then that is between you and God to reconsile. Because i can not make you see love where love abounds. Maybe God has harden your heart to love till you humble yourself and ask to see it.

There is no reconciliation to be had on that count. Love does not abound in bloody sympathetic magic. I find that my heart is very quick to love, so if god's attempted to harden it, he failed there as fantastically as he failed in his "gift".

(March 30, 2013 at 9:55 pm)Drich Wrote: For, God has been known to Harden a heart to make a person or people endure hardships so they may know God better.

Jesus Christ is the same Yesterday, Today and forever. Jesus is still God.

On the first point, any god that intentionally plays a silly game of do you love me enough is obviously sociopathic.

On the second point, that whole god is unchanging spiel is untrue. If one reads the bible, god does change. In fact, he went from being a psychotic tyrant in the old testament to a hippie socialist as jesus in the new testament.

(March 30, 2013 at 12:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Tell your god to get a refund on my count. The product was defective, and I didn't order it in the first place.

But Rhythm, aren't you tired of being immoral? Doesn't eating babies get messy? Here's Annie, a recent convert, that absolutely loves our product:

"I was just living life not knowing that I was the scum of the earth via inheritance. I had no idea I was being so immoral. That's when I decided I needed to A/S/K for this product!"

Pray now and receive a complimentary ambiguous miracle, free of charge!

/salesman

(March 30, 2013 at 9:20 pm)Drich Wrote: If Jesus was not in the Will of the Father would the Father Have supported His miricals? No.

What about the magicians who did their own magic? What about Satan who does what he wants now? Why would God allow Satan respite to lead astray people but not allow Jesus if Jesus gave in to temptations?

Also, what if the "Father" was in on it. If the son can sin, surely the father can as well, after all, they both have free-will right?

Quote:Being born in or out of wed lock is not a sin eitherway.

Moving the goalposts. You said "how can result of something unacceptable be acceptable?"

Quote:How is attonement a sin?

Where did I say it was? It can be a product of it (combined with God's compassion and mercy).

See the difference only is that God acting to wrath, you see it result of sin, and that's fine. But if God reacts with mercy and compassion (attonement), you don't see it as result of sin, and it's not fine?

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(March 30, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Godschild Wrote: What possible reason would He want to trick anyone, that makes no sense to me?

What possible motive does Angel have to rebel against God then want to make evil and suffer all of humanity? - evil - right?

So same thing, it's an evil motive. Maybe he wants to have fun like the Joker in Batman.

Quote:Again, why would God want to trick anyone, an omniscient and omnipotent being would have no reason to trick humanity. The God Head (Yahway) could not go against itself, Jesus addressed this very thing when the pharisees called Him satan. The God Head is of one mind in three persons. This is what Jesus said about a divided kingdom.
Matt. 12:25 And knowing their thoughts He said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid to waste; and any city or house divided against itself shall not stand. 26) "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? 27) "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges. 28) "But if I cast out by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
This statement show that Jesus could not go against the Father.

There we go. So he was incapable of sinning. If he was incapable of sinning, then how can he be praised for avoiding temptation? Where is the sacrifice? Where is the praise?

Quote:If God lied He would sin, God says He will not be in the presence of sin, this eliminates the possibility of God sinning, god could not live with Himself if He sinned. This is another way through scripture to show God does not lie.

So God cannot sin (Jesus cannot sin either) - then it's not praiseworthy really for Father and Son to not have sinned.

(March 30, 2013 at 2:39 pm)Drich Wrote: My Question is: Is this 'glorified state' still God?

Yes, because the post-resurrection Jesus has complete union with the Father.

(March 30, 2013 at 10:11 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: There we go. So he was incapable of sinning. If he was incapable of sinning, then how can he be praised for avoiding temptation? Where is the sacrifice? Where is the praise?

A tower full of 18 to 21 year old virgins needing to be spanked and he walks away. I'd call that a pretty big sacrifice. The point is that the temptation was ineffective because God has complete mastery over the flesh. The Christian believes that His victory over sin allows us to call on His power to drive sin out of our lives. He's like a bouncer at the door to our souls.