(April 9, 2013 at 12:33 am)missluckie26 Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:*shows Mr_Dew the bible

*shows Mr_Dew the universe

There is the proof. Now all you need is understanding.

Understanding is all you need? Really?
I'd rather have facts and knowledge based on them.

You'd rather not think. Of course!

(April 9, 2013 at 1:39 am)jrsm_10 Wrote: Godschild:

Quote:Thank you for sharing, I was interested. One thing you did not address in your statement, adults that come to Christ without the parents teaching them. Brainwashing does not seem to apply to them.

No. They walked into mental prison all by themselves and at their own will. Your point?

And you're welcome.

Was interested in your thoughts since you believe that Christians are persons brainwashed from birth and not all become Christians as children.
I do have another question, do you believe in free will, most nonbelievers argue against it whether they believe it or not. I see you mentioned it indirectly in your above answer.

where did she say that? did I miss it? where did she say that, anywhere in this thread?

(April 8, 2013 at 11:15 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(April 8, 2013 at 4:24 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Revelation and faith.

How do you know the elephant was there when it left no trace, now you might not consider the Bible, but I do. Faith leads to belief, belief to knowledge, knowledge to revelation. You must do things in a proper order, please revise your statement.

The prophet of the elephant had a visitation from an angel who revealed the existence of the elephant. The prophet is my Aunt Matilda, who I trust on matters of life and death and who has no previous history of mental illness. Why would she lie about something like that? Why would an angel lie about something like that?

(April 9, 2013 at 2:38 am)Godschild Wrote: I do have another question, do you believe in free will, most nonbelievers argue against it whether they believe it or not. I see you mentioned it indirectly in your above answer.

Free will absolutely exists. That is the nature of a world WITHOUT a god.

Free will ceases to exist in the presence of a omnipotent, omniscient deity because foreknowledge of action removes our ability to choose another path and thus, cancels free will.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

(April 9, 2013 at 2:38 am)Godschild Wrote:

(April 9, 2013 at 1:39 am)jrsm_10 Wrote: Godschild:

No. They walked into mental prison all by themselves and at their own will. Your point?

And you're welcome.

Was interested in your thoughts since you believe that Christians are persons brainwashed from birth and not all become Christians as children.
I do have another question, do you believe in free will, most nonbelievers argue against it whether they believe it or not. I see you mentioned it indirectly in your above answer.

God allows you to choose. Then, by the nature of god, people must be able to choose "not your god". If this is not a possibility, then you have no ability to choose. That is not how the brain works, it makes choices.

We have the god given ability to reject your apple. Praise the lord, or no-lord.

(April 9, 2013 at 11:56 am)Baalzebutt Wrote: Free will absolutely exists. That is the nature of a world WITHOUT a god.

Here is an example of an Atheist with more faith than me.

Can you prove free-will exists or explain how you are justified in knowing it exists for certain?

(April 9, 2013 at 2:38 am)Godschild Wrote: I do have another question, do you believe in free will, most nonbelievers argue against it whether they believe it or not. I see you mentioned it indirectly in your above answer.

Let's play a game. I am going to give you a choice:

1. Choose to accept me and I will give you wonderfulness and beauty, a life of ease and greatness filled with love and awesomeness.

2. Choose not to accept me and I will murder your family, inflict unimaginable pain on your children, and torture you forever by taking away everything that means anything to you and filling your life with the greatest tragedy you can imagine.

Not much of a choice, is it?

This is the deal according to your god. So, I reiterate my point that, in a world with your god, free will does not exist. Because even if we are "free to choose" that choice is being forced upon us which makes it no choice at all.

Your god is like Kim Jung Un only not quite as mature.

---

(April 9, 2013 at 12:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 9, 2013 at 11:56 am)Baalzebutt Wrote: Free will absolutely exists. That is the nature of a world WITHOUT a god.

Here is an example of an Atheist with more faith than me.

Can you prove free-will exists or explain how you are justified in knowing it exists for certain?

Without the omnipotence of a god, there is no foreknowledge or predetermination. Therefore, we are free to choose our actions which will lead us down an unknown path to an unknown future.

As soon as the path and future are known, by anyone or anything, our ability to choose is eliminated. With a deity, our path is inevitable and free will does not exist. Without a deity, our path is unknown and necessarily advances based on free will.

(April 9, 2013 at 12:14 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote: Without the omnipotence of a god, there is no foreknowledge or predetermination. Therefore, we are free to choose our actions which will lead us down an unknown path to an unknown future.

As soon as the path and future are known, by anyone or anything, our ability to choose is eliminated. With a deity, our path is inevitable and free will does not exist. Without a deity, our path is unknown and necessarily advances based on free will.

Your conclusion is non-sequitur it seems. It seems problematic to have a being have foreknowledge of the future and yet we have free-will. It doesn't however prove a universe without a god can possibly have free-will however. Let alone that it does. It just proves that a universe with a being that has foreknowledge of the outcomes, is incompatible with free-will.

If time was such that the past, present, and future all exist for example, it can possibly be deterministic, because the future already exists and there is no way to change the future in the present, because it already exists.

Even if the present exists without the future existing frame point, you have not shown how naturalism can account for free-will when our biological minds are subject to physical cause and effect, so what exactly is choosing freely? What is not subject to cause and effect in the mind, and chooses without being caused to chose what it chooses by biochemical forces? And is compatibilism an oxymoron or not?et etc...

(April 9, 2013 at 1:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 9, 2013 at 12:14 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote: Without the omnipotence of a god, there is no foreknowledge or predetermination. Therefore, we are free to choose our actions which will lead us down an unknown path to an unknown future.

As soon as the path and future are known, by anyone or anything, our ability to choose is eliminated. With a deity, our path is inevitable and free will does not exist. Without a deity, our path is unknown and necessarily advances based on free will.

Your conclusion is non-sequitur it seems. It seems problematic to have a being have foreknowledge of the future and yet we have free-will. It doesn't however prove a universe without a god can possibly have free-will however. Let alone that it does. It just proves that a universe with a being that has foreknowledge of the outcomes, is incompatible with free-will.

If time was such that the past, present, and future all exist for example, it can possibly be deterministic, because the future already exists and there is no way to change the future in the present, because it already exists.

Even if the present exists without the future existing frame point, you have not shown how naturalism can account for free-will when our biological minds are subject to physical cause and effect, so what exactly is choosing freely? What is not subject to cause and effect in the mind, and chooses without being caused to chose what it chooses by biochemical forces? And is compatibilism an oxymoron or not?et etc...

Because we experience time in a linear fashion, one must assume that the future does not exist.

From a naturalistic point of view, our brains function on a cocktail of chemicals. These chemicals not only influence, but are the deciding factor in the decisions we make. To remove the decision making process from its biological element is to presuppose the existence of the soul, which, by naturalistic standards, does not exist. The implication here is that we are somehow prisoners of our brains when, in point of fact, we ARE our brains. Therefore, the decisions we make are necessarily of free will, as dictated by our brain regardless of chemistry or physical damage.

Perhaps we need to define "free will". By your argument, it appears that in order to have free will we must be absolutely unencumbered by brain chemistry or any other factor that might influence us. This, however, is an impossibility because, aside from living in a complete vacuum, we are influenced by outside forces.

So, just to be clear, what is your idea of free will?