(May 8, 2013 at 8:24 pm)ebg Wrote: We?, Like a football team? Or maybe you feel your part of some special group?

Yes, exactly. I belong to the team that thinks your fucking bible is a pile of horseshit.

You explain it if you like. Seems as if you need the practice!

What is the"Team" name do you feel you need to be empowered by?

(May 8, 2013 at 12:10 pm)goodnews Wrote: Your argument is how you perceive your own truth, according your own opinion, of how you understand the narrative, but the actual truth in the narrative, is far greater and loveing than your biassed assumptions will permit you to understand. When it comes down to it, you are no differant than your two Christian freinds as neither of you really want to understand the narrative, as its your own opinions that drive you and not the truth !

I love how the person that spews this out then expects their own subjective interpretation to be taken seriously:

goodnews Wrote:What most of "christiandom" does not realize, is that God has not finnished creating us yet !

Textbook definition of hypocrisy.

(May 8, 2013 at 9:32 am)Stue Denim Wrote: Whereas a nonliteral genesis means that all Jesus stuff that follows is pointless, there would be no reason for Jesus to die.

Only from the point of view of sacrificial atonement. A symbolic interpretation has no effect on Christus Victorious.

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(May 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: God wanted them to trust Him, and He certainly did not want them to know evil,...

I think the point is that Adam and Eve would already have to know it was wrong to disobey God and that disobedience was somehow evil.

(May 8, 2013 at 10:26 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(May 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: God wanted them to trust Him, and He certainly did not want them to know evil,...

I think the point is that Adam and Eve would already have to know it was wrong to disobey God and that disobedience was somehow evil.

Yes I agree they knew it was wrong, because they knew the consequences, but I believe they only understood it as wrong, not evil. Like a child knows right from wrong but not that wrong is actually evil, at least till the child reaches a certain age which could vary from child to child.

(May 8, 2013 at 8:49 pm)Godschild Wrote: You say this as if I believe parents are evil, I did not, you just want to make Christians look bad even if you have to twist their words into lies, that's totally dishonest of you.

And, I didn't say you did believe this, but your argument made the assumption that being a parent is the same as God making people. Parents bringing kids into a dangerous world is not evil. Making a dangerous world and putting kids into it is evil. Adam did not make death or disease or calamity. He did not choose to be in the world he was in. He did not choose to be made.

Ryan Wrote:God did not force them to sin, so how does that make God responsible, and do not give me an atheists typical answer of He had foreknowledge. Foreknowledge does not make one responsible for another's action. If you're having an inappropriate relationship with another person and your best friend knows about it, does that make your friend guilty because he/she did not tell your spouse. As a matter of fact you would call your friend guilty if he/she told on you.

No, he did not force them to sin, and that is not what I am saying he did. What he did was make it possible for them to sin, not by the tired old Christian excuse of 'free will', but by placing temptation in their path and not making the consequences clear to them. How could Adam and Eve have any realistic concept of what death entailed? Neither of them had seen a person die or suffer or go without.

If God had not placed that tree in the garden, brought it to Adam's attention (would he have even thought twice of this tree otherwise?) and gave a person with no concept of death (or of what warnings even mean, he was never even warned before) a vague warning of death, how would Adam and Eve ever sinned on their own? God made humans curious, as well, so that also is his responsibility.

It is all arbitrary. The two lived in the garden with no rules. Sin did not exist until God decided to make sin exist by making sin possible.

Quote:You and I are not paying for Adam and Eve's sin, we are responsible for our on sins. I thank God I'm not responsible for the sins of others.

This you say, and then immediately after, you contradict yourself:

Quote:The inheritance comes through the fall of Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God. The problem with you is you're not willing to take on the responsibility of your actions.

I have no problem taking responsibility for my actions when they have a negative effect on real people. I have a big problem taking responsibility for not being perfect, because I was not made to be perfect. I have a big problem saying sorry to God if he made me what I am. I have an enormous problem prostrating myself before a being responsible for crimes vastly more evil and cruel than anything I've ever done to anybody.

(May 8, 2013 at 10:46 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(May 8, 2013 at 10:26 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: I think the point is that Adam and Eve would already have to know it was wrong to disobey God and that disobedience was somehow evil.

Yes I agree they knew it was wrong, because they knew the consequences, but I believe they only understood it as wrong, not evil. Like a child knows right from wrong but not that wrong is actually evil, at least till the child reaches a certain age which could vary from child to child.

Po-tae-to, po-tah-to.

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Chad Wooters Wrote:I think the point is that Adam and Eve would already have to know it was wrong to disobey God and that disobedience was somehow evil.

Drich will be the first to tell you that sin = evil, and to sin is to do something against the Will of God. In this case, his Will stated that they should not eat from the tree i.e. their disobedience was evil.

Godschild said:

Quote:Saved everybody a bit of trouble, that's a dumb statement, If God had created man as sinners you would still be complaining, "oh why did God do this to us, oh why." Your problem is you can not accept reality.
Are you saying that parents do not realize that the world is going to throw bad situations at their children? That would be irresponsible at the least. So I see it as apples to apples.

No that is not a dumb statement, you just don't like seeing your God being held to account for the horrible things which he does. What he did was set Adam and Eve for a fall that he knew full well they would take. Had he so chose he could have made it different. But I suppose that would have ruined the fun he had traumatizing these two naifs. What could they know? They had no experience with the world, this was supposed to be Paradise, right?

That is why I said that they where child-like. They just got there, they had no experience, they had no knowledge. He did not want them to have any. They may have been adult in size, but they did not have adult experience, adult learning, adult knowledge. There is no way that they could have had any of that. Nor was there any indication that God would have ever given them any if things had worked out differently.

Not that they ever would have. He knew, being omnimax as he is, what was going to happen. He knew that they would eat of the tree, and that they would be cast out into the cold, cruel world to fend for themselves. Quite frankly, Adam and Eve got shafted, big time.

Quote:You say that if I believe you're evil because you brought children into the world, I do not know how you could get that from what I said, it must be because you want to see the worst in Christians.
Actually I'm glad everything worked out for your family, a lot are not that blessed.

I am sorry that you took it that way. I did not think that you thought parents were evil for bringing children into the world. However, you brought it up.

Quote:When parents bring a child into the world are they being evil, they knowingly are exposing the child to all the dangers this world has to offer. Is this loving the child, or an evil act by allowing the child to have to experience all the world can throw at the child.
This is the reasoning you are using with God, so by your reasoning parents are evil by bring a child into this world.

That is how you put it. I'm just saying that what God did according to Genesis, I my estimation was quite evil indeed. He set the rules.
As human parents my wife and I had no say whatever in what kind of world we lived in. So we live in the world as we find it, and prepared our children as best we could to function within it and prosper. Happily it worked out. We made do with the world as it is. God could make it however he wanted it. And what he wanted to do was to play a dirty trick.

That is evil, in my book.