(May 11, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Godschild Wrote: Were does scripture say God left them alone in the Garden, I find that very difficult to believe, don't you?

Esquilax Wrote:Okay, see, now you're stuck, because your options are to either tell me that you believe god watched the serpent mislead his creations without doing anything, or that he was absent when it occurred.

I'm not stuck, I'm the one who brought up the omnipresence of God.

Esquilax Wrote:As for a scriptural reference, Genesis 3:8. They hear god approaching, indicating that he wasn't present. Now, you can resort to the whole "god is everywhere" thing, but then you're back to telling me god allowed Satan the run of his favored creations.

You are correct, Satan was allowed, he has no power over God. God was watching, He is everywhere, He knows what's happening at all times.

GC Wrote:What tree, I did not know the serpent was in a tree. You'll have to explain that one to me, please.

Esquilax Wrote:The tree of knowledge of good and evil: why did it exist in the first place? What reason did god have to create a tree that he would forbid anyone to eat the fruit thereof? What is the purpose of this tree, other than to act as a reason to boot Adam and Eve from the garden?

You must be real dense, how many times have this been explained, ok let's try one more time. The tree was there so Adam and Eve could show their love for God through obedience, the same thing parents desire from their children. Tell me what would make your parents happy, your money or (not and/or) your respect for them.

Godschild Wrote:The tree was there so Adam and Eve could show their love for God through obedience, the same thing parents desire from their children.

Actually, GC, as a parent, I don't want my son to obey me to show his love. I want him to obey me to keep him out of harm's way. I guess that makes me the better parent.

Quote:The tree was there so Adam and Eve could show their love for God through obedience, the same thing parents desire from their children.

You must be as much of a dick as a father as your fucking god is, G-C.

That is one of the most abhorrent things I have yet to hear! My wife and I raised 4 children, 3 of whom are wives and mothers themselves. Now, like any parents, we wanted our kids to obey - but that had zero to do with their "showing their love for us" by so doing. It had to do with their staying happy, healthy and safe. If your children love you, you will know it. Every child disobeys, now and again. Does that mean they love you less? I think not. I did not always obey my folks. My love for them certainly was not going up and down like some kind of emotional sine wave. It just was. It was not conditioned on anything, anymore than my love for my kids. I just do, that's all. Further, I never would have dreamed of setting up any kind of "test" for them to see if they would obey, so they could show their love for me. The very idea is nausea inducing.

(May 11, 2013 at 3:46 pm)Godschild Wrote: I'm not stuck, I'm the one who brought up the omnipresence of God.

So, your theology concerns a god that allows the embodiment of evil to tempt his creations, and waits so that he can get pissy after. Awesome.

Quote:You must be real dense, how many times have this been explained, ok let's try one more time. The tree was there so Adam and Eve could show their love for God through obedience, the same thing parents desire from their children.

And yet, strangely, you were the one who was too dense to spot that I accounted for that possibility in my original post, in the hopes that there was some alternative answer. Interestingly, you seem happy to accept the most petty, manipulative, hucksterish answer as the motivation of your all good creator being.

You really are a mindless cheerleader in the most fascinating way, GC.

Esquilax Wrote:The tree of knowledge of good and evil: why did it exist in the first place? What reason did god have to create a tree that he would forbid anyone to eat the fruit thereof? What is the purpose of this tree, other than to act as a reason to boot Adam and Eve from the garden?

Quote:Tell me what would make your parents happy, your money or (not and/or) your respect for them.

You seem to be missing that respect and obedience are different things; you just seem happy with Adam and Eve just doing whatever god wants. That's not respect, it's the illusion of respect. It's what you and your kind seem to want; actual belief doesn't matter, sincerity doesn't matter, all that matters is that you follow the crowd, observe the traditions, donate at church, keep cheerleading, don't ever stop, god is good, no thinking...

But that's not truthful, and that's not respect. Respect is earned, and a god who would indulge in entrapment and then bully his children throughout creation, even the ones who had nothing to do with the initial "crime" isn't even worth pity, much less respect.

(May 11, 2013 at 2:43 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(May 11, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Godschild Wrote: Were does scripture say God left them alone in the Garden, I find that very difficult to believe, don't you?

Okay, see, now you're stuck, because your options are to either tell me that you believe god watched the serpent mislead his creations without doing anything, or that he was absent when it occurred.

As for a scriptural reference, Genesis 3:8. They hear god approaching, indicating that he wasn't present. Now, you can resort to the whole "god is everywhere" thing, but then you're back to telling me god allowed Satan the run of his favored creations.

Quote:What tree, I did not know the serpent was in a tree. You'll have to explain that one to me, please.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil: why did it exist in the first place? What reason did god have to create a tree that he would forbid anyone to eat the fruit thereof? What is the purpose of this tree, other than to act as a reason to boot Adam and Eve from the garden?

You, me, and Godschild, all know there is no good answer to these questions.

The difference is, you and I accept that and the implications.

Godschild, however, simply chooses to deflect and use selective reasoning.

(May 11, 2013 at 4:38 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

Godschild Wrote:The tree was there so Adam and Eve could show their love for God through obedience, the same thing parents desire from their children.

Actually, GC, as a parent, I don't want my son to obey me to show his love. I want him to obey me to keep him out of harm's way. I guess that makes me the better parent.

A child shows it's love for a parent through obedience, you do not get to choose that's the way it is. So if one does not accept their child's obedience as love what does that say about the parent. Actually I think you said the above for arguments sake.

(May 12, 2013 at 1:41 am)Godschild Wrote: A child shows it's love for a parent through obedience, you do not get to choose that's the way it is.

Considering that there is no one correct way to raise a child, you obviously know nothing.

(May 12, 2013 at 1:41 am)Godschild Wrote: A child shows it's love for a parent through obedience, you do not get to choose that's the way it is. So if one does not accept their child's obedience as love what does that say about the parent. Actually I think you said the above for arguments sake.

God says that parents show their love through discipline, but Christians don't put their kids to death for misbehaving as the Bible instructs, which I am forced to conclude makes all Christians bad parents.

(May 11, 2013 at 6:08 pm)Raven Wrote:

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Godschild wrote: The tree was there so Adam and Eve could show their love for God through obedience, the same thing parents desire from their children. Tell me what would make your parents happy, your money or (not and/or) your respect for them.

That is one of the most abhorrent things I have yet to hear! My wife and I raised 4 children, 3 of whom are wives and mothers themselves. Now, like any parents, we wanted our kids to obey - but that had zero to do with their "showing their love for us" by so doing. It had to do with their staying happy, healthy and safe. If your children love you, you will know it. Every child disobeys, now and again. Does that mean they love you less? I think not. I did not always obey my folks. My love for them certainly was not going up and down like some kind of emotional sine wave. It just was. It was not conditioned on anything, anymore than my love for my kids. I just do, that's all. Further, I never would have dreamed of setting up any kind of "test" for them to see if they would obey, so they could show their love for me. The very idea is nausea inducing.

If they were not showing your their love through obedience and respect then exactly what were they doing, being selfish to stay out of harms way so they would be ok for themselves. I do not believe they did, I believe they obeyed you to stay safe for you, you raised kids so you know kids do things for reasons. They never do things just to do them, their exploring life, hopefully with the guidance of parents who love them by giving them safe boundaries. Children are looking for boundaries, that's why they will test to see where the boundaries are. I really do not believe that you do not believe children do not show love to parents through obedience.
You did not have to set up a test for your children, the world is full of them, isn't that why you gave them rules. You set these rules as you said for their staying happy, healthy and safe. Adam and Eve had no issues with safety, health or happiness, the tree was placed there so those things would be threatened through their disobedience, they did and the result is obvious.
Why would you or do you find it so hard to believe that children obey their parents out of love, what other reason do they have to obey. You say to keep them safe and ect. well they do not understand completely what they are facing, if they did they would not need rules to follow, just like Adam and Eve if there was no tree. If your children had never obeyed you do you really think you would believe they loved you? I think that's pretty doubtful.
I'm sorry your feelings got hurt, I knew what I said would be a sore point for some, but the argument for or against an evil God will and should bring the comparison of family into the picture, because the relationship of God, Adam and Eve is set as a family. I do not know if I got to everything you said, but I wanted to cover obedience and love since this was the argument coming out of the OP.

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(May 12, 2013 at 1:55 am)Ryantology Wrote:

(May 12, 2013 at 1:41 am)Godschild Wrote: A child shows it's love for a parent through obedience, you do not get to choose that's the way it is. So if one does not accept their child's obedience as love what does that say about the parent. Actually I think you said the above for arguments sake.

God says that parents show their love through discipline, but Christians don't put their kids to death for misbehaving as the Bible instructs, which I am forced to conclude makes all Christians bad parents.

You're about as stupid a person as has ever lived, discipline withheld is love that's withheld, if one cares nothing for their child they'll let them experience life just as they desire, and when things go bad for the child the parent can't imagine what happened. They say nothing was withheld from the child, we let the child explore life, when actually love was withheld because discipline was withheld.
The scriptures never calls for little children to be put to death, never. You just are trying to use the same old tired statement that I've explained away thoroughly many times, grow-up.

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(May 12, 2013 at 1:44 am)Maelstrom Wrote:

(May 12, 2013 at 1:41 am)Godschild Wrote: A child shows it's love for a parent through obedience, you do not get to choose that's the way it is.

Considering that there is no one correct way to raise a child, you obviously know nothing.

I did not say there was one correct way to raise a child, you are reading into my statements what you believe they say just to have an argument, but in actuality you have no good argument so you make something up, pitiful, pitiful. There are certain things all good parents do and giving rules to be followed is one of them. So you see I do know something, you're pitiiiiiful.