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RE: Argument from evil, restated
May 23, 2013 at 3:08 pm
(This post was last modified: May 23, 2013 at 3:11 pm by John V.)
(May 23, 2013 at 2:27 pm)Raven Wrote: (May 23, 2013 at 2:19 pm)John V Wrote: Sorry to burst your bubble, but all you have to do is replace "is malevolent" with "has his own purposes."
No, he is malevolent. But you can't afford to admit that to yourself. Incorrect. That argument is a special pleading usage of malevolent.
(May 23, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Praetorian Wrote: If @JohnV is going to concede omnibenevolence, and you are going chalk my objections up to mysterious ways, that's perfectly fine. I don't recall chalking your objections up to mysterious ways.
Quote:It won't destroy your faith, and you don't even necessarily lose the argument. All any of us are saying is that the structure of Christianity has cracks in it, and we need to point them out.
Sorry, but while some Christians agree with omnibenevolence, you haven't shown that it is structural to Christianity.
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RE: Argument from evil, restated
May 23, 2013 at 3:20 pm
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Argument from evil, restated
May 23, 2013 at 3:20 pm
(May 23, 2013 at 10:13 am)John V Wrote: Hardly. A more apt analogy would be that I created some robots and allowed one to talk another into breaking a rule I had set for them.
The tree would be the loaded gun. If there's no tree, there's no sin. I really cannot see what was the necessity of the entire farce, what goal God wanted to achieve that could not have been done without blatant entrapment.
(May 23, 2013 at 2:19 pm)John V Wrote: Sorry to burst your bubble, but all you have to do is replace "is malevolent" with "has his own purposes."
You could do that with any possible example of malevolence.
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RE: Argument from evil, restated
May 23, 2013 at 3:21 pm
(May 23, 2013 at 2:27 pm)Raven Wrote: (May 23, 2013 at 2:19 pm)John V Wrote: Sorry to burst your bubble, but all you have to do is replace "is malevolent" with "has his own purposes."
No, he is malevolent. But you can't afford to admit that to yourself.
No, He is just. But you believe you can't afford to admit that to yourself.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Argument from evil, restated
May 23, 2013 at 3:30 pm
(May 23, 2013 at 3:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes they have. If they hadn't yet, I'll claim it. Your gods a cockup, so much of a cockup that a cockup like me can think of an easy fix to a vast amount of evil and suffering any person might invoke. I've suggested it before, I'll suggest it again. Try creating a biosphere in which the vast majority of species -aren't- fully invested in consuming each other to sustain themselves. Or perhaps create a boundless fount of resources from which all can draw. We have godly fucking magic at our disposal so I'm not going to hear any bullshit excuses on this count.
The -only- redeeming feature of this creator character you've dreamt up is that it is imaginary.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Argument from evil, restated
May 23, 2013 at 3:45 pm
(This post was last modified: May 23, 2013 at 3:47 pm by John V.)
(May 23, 2013 at 3:20 pm)Ryantology Wrote: The tree would be the loaded gun. If there's no tree, there's no sin. I really cannot see what was the necessity of the entire farce, what goal God wanted to achieve that could not have been done without blatant entrapment. If there's no tree, there's no righteousness. It amazes me that you guys never think of the flip side. There's two ways to know evil and good. Doing evil...or doing good. If A&E consider the serpent's temptation and reject it, they become righteous.
Quote:You could do that with any possible example of malevolence.
No, you can't do it with examples that really fit the definition of malevolence. Failing to prevent evil doesn't fit the definition. Maybe it made more sense in the original.
(May 23, 2013 at 3:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes they have. If an atheist were to start questioning his/her ideas on this forum you and the rest would be screaming to the top of the mountain, you can't do that, it's not right. If one of you were to inquire into Christianity you would call them intellectually dishonest. Yes, IIRC FTR was contemplating deism some time back, and I don't recall him being congratulated by all the atheists.
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RE: Argument from evil, restated
May 23, 2013 at 3:48 pm
(This post was last modified: May 23, 2013 at 3:48 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Failing to prevent evil, on the scale being referenced - which you are able to prevent, does. You could throw superpowers under the bus as well, if you like - to be rid of this nagging little bit - and we'll just mosey on down a line or two.
If unable and unwilling, why call it a god?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Argument from evil, restated
May 23, 2013 at 3:48 pm
(This post was last modified: May 23, 2013 at 3:55 pm by Godscreated.)
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Argument from evil, restated
May 23, 2013 at 3:59 pm
(This post was last modified: May 23, 2013 at 4:00 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(May 23, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Praetorian Wrote: Nobody in this thread has claimed they are wiser than God (yet). Maybe not you specifically. It is a clear implication from certain atheist pronouncements like the following:
God is malevolent. = I am more righteous than God.
God's incompetent because doesn't save everyone. = I am the judge of who should be saved.
God's creation is flawed. = I have the expertise to evaluate God's performance.
God created evil. = I have better moral judgement than God.
So you're wrong. Nearly every atheist objection to God, as God, assumes that the atheist is smarter, wiser and more righteous than God.
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RE: Argument from evil, restated
May 23, 2013 at 4:07 pm
(May 23, 2013 at 3:59 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (May 23, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Praetorian Wrote: Nobody in this thread has claimed they are wiser than God (yet). Maybe not you specifically. It is a clear implication from certain atheist pronouncements like the following:
God is malevolent. = I am more righteous than God.
God's incompetent because doesn't save everyone. = I am the judge of who should be saved.
God's creation is flawed. = I have the expertise to evaluate God's performance.
God created evil. = I have better moral judgement than God.
So you're wrong. Nearly every atheist objection to God, as God, assumes that the atheist is smarter, wiser and more righteous than God. Ah, the "you need to be perfect to judge God" angle.
Here's the ringer: you don't need to be perfect - only reasonable.
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