(May 24, 2013 at 11:20 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: We all believe Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. That's pretty consistent across the board.

Yup, shared namespace, the rest (even the rest about this christ character you're so fond of) is up or grabs.

God chose not to make puppets, so he gave us free will. The world runs along a set of logical laws, sometimes they cause shit to happen, hurricanes, earthquakes, illness, ultimately death. God works through all this by giving us grace to make good choices, to help others, to fund research, etc etc. he's not Santa, he's not a magician. Christians believe in a god who died by public execution, his followers scattered, his message seemingly forgotten. God drew victory from that tragedy through the resurrection, but first came the crucifixion. Evil is the price for our radical freedom, would you prefer to be docile preprogrammed robots? Humanity is so free it was able to kill god. Problem of evil solved.

(May 25, 2013 at 3:55 am)Godschild Wrote: Since you do not believe there's a God, then tell us what's your reason for not helping all those people you rant about. Are you as callous as you describe God are you as uncaring as you accuse the God you don't believe exists. Just what is your problem. If you spent the same amount of time try do to something for those people as you do here telling us how bad the God you do not believe in is, then those people would have more than they do now, how irresponsible of you.

I am curious to know how you know about my charity when I never make a point to talk about it?

Not that it matters. I don't claim to be perfect and flawless and the source of all things good, but your god does. Why do you hold me higher standard than you do your own god?

If I had the power to help those children, if perhaps I was omnipotent and omniscient, let's say, I would not hesitate to instantly and for free, provide everything every human needed to live a life of safety and freedom from fear of want. I would have the imagination to influence them in ways that they would wish to compete with the unknowns of the universe instead of each other. I would make it possible for humans to live driven by more honorable ambitions without having to worry about having enough to survive.

But, I don't. So, I help in my own ways. You God is alleged to have that power, and chooses to allow it all to happen. Ending suffering is, to me, a moral imperative of any being which has unlimited powers, as it only exists if they desire it to. I feel responsible for things which are smaller or lesser than I am. I will kill roaches in my kitchen only because I have no non-violent alternative method left to try. I would not kill bacteria if there was a way to neutralize their effects on my body without destroying them. I would never kill anything if a non-violent method was possible to accomplish whatever motive I had. If I have such power and allow the present state of affairs to exist, that is an act of malice at worst and criminal neglect at best.

(May 25, 2013 at 7:56 pm)Origen Wrote: God chose not to make puppets, so he gave us free will. The world runs along a set of logical laws, sometimes they cause shit to happen, hurricanes, earthquakes, illness, ultimately death. God works through all this by giving us grace to make good choices, to help others, to fund research, etc etc. he's not Santa, he's not a magician. Christians believe in a god who died by public execution, his followers scattered, his message seemingly forgotten. God drew victory from that tragedy through the resurrection, but first came the crucifixion. Evil is the price for our radical freedom, would you prefer to be docile preprogrammed robots? Humanity is so free it was able to kill god. Problem of evil solved.

In the bolded:
The 2004 tsunami that killed 200 000 people... remind me again how good can come of that?

(May 25, 2013 at 9:39 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(May 25, 2013 at 7:56 pm)Origen Wrote: God chose not to make puppets, so he gave us free will. The world runs along a set of logical laws, sometimes they cause shit to happen, hurricanes, earthquakes, illness, ultimately death. God works through all this by giving us grace to make good choices, to help others, to fund research, etc etc. he's not Santa, he's not a magician. Christians believe in a god who died by public execution, his followers scattered, his message seemingly forgotten. God drew victory from that tragedy through the resurrection, but first came the crucifixion. Evil is the price for our radical freedom, would you prefer to be docile preprogrammed robots? Humanity is so free it was able to kill god. Problem of evil solved.

In the bolded:
The 2004 tsunami that killed 200 000 people... remind me again how good can come of that?

Note I did not say good comes from natural disasters, they are a reality of our world. What kind of free existence would we have if God held up his hand and stopped all natural things from happening? We would then be toys in God's diorama. I said God works through us, helping us to make good choices. Ask yourself how much global weather change and the melting of the polar ice cap has influenced our recent natural disasters? What about the lack, or inefficiency of emergency warning systems? God transforms the pain of those victims in his eternity. Of course, if you do no believe in God and the immortality of life, all deaths are a tragedy, and if living in a nihilistic universe where life and death are meaningless is what you want, you're welcome to you're belief. My argument is you can't use disasters, crime, illness to disprove the existence of God, because God is not limited by our time and space.

Certainly the tsunami of 2004 was a tragedy, as was that of 2011, as are all deaths which cause the early interruption of life. But those of us who believe in God, know that he works in the eternal and is able to turn sorrow into joy in ways we know not of.

(May 26, 2013 at 5:40 pm)Origen Wrote: What kind of free existence would we have if God held up his hand and stopped all natural things from happening? We would then be toys in God's diorama.

What this implies is that existence is not worth having unless the universe is such that we can die randomly and in great suffering. I want to follow this to its logical conclusion, so bear with me:

Assuming God exists:

1. Natural disasters and death are both real.
2. Natural disasters are a grave threat to us because we were expelled from the Garden of Eden thanks to Adam's sin.
3. Random natural disaster is necessary for free existence, otherwise we'd be toys in God' diorama.
4. Free existence is the optimal state of existence.
5. The freedom of free existence is the freedom to sin.
6. Without sin, there is no freedom
7. Through Christ one finds redemption and everlasting life in the Kingdom of Heaven.
8. In the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no sin or natural disaster.
9. In the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no free will or free existence.
10. In the Kingdom of Heaven, we are all toys in God's diorama.
11. This is inferior to free existence, as your post implies.
12. Therefore, living in sin and danger is preferable to living with God in Heaven and heaven should be avoided.

(May 26, 2013 at 5:40 pm)Origen Wrote: But those of us who believe in God, know that he works in the eternal and is able to turn sorrow into joy in ways we know not of.

So we don't know what god does or how it does it, but we do know that it works in the way you say it does.

Would that be a fair assessment of your outlook on this whole thing?

(May 26, 2013 at 6:29 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

(May 26, 2013 at 5:40 pm)Origen Wrote: What kind of free existence would we have if God held up his hand and stopped all natural things from happening? We would then be toys in God's diorama.

What this implies is that existence is not worth having unless the universe is such that we can die randomly and in great suffering. I want to follow this to its logical conclusion, so bear with me:

Assuming God exists:

1. Natural disasters and death are both real.
2. Natural disasters are a grave threat to us because we were expelled from the Garden of Eden thanks to Adam's sin.
3. Random natural disaster is necessary for free existence, otherwise we'd be toys in God' diorama.
4. Free existence is the optimal state of existence.
5. The freedom of free existence is the freedom to sin.
6. Without sin, there is no freedom
7. Through Christ one finds redemption and everlasting life in the Kingdom of Heaven.
8. In the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no sin or natural disaster.
9. In the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no free will or free existence.
10. In the Kingdom of Heaven, we are all toys in God's diorama.
11. This is inferior to free existence, as your post implies.
12. Therefore, living in sin and danger is preferable to living with God in Heaven and heaven should be avoided.

In death our path is set toward god, or away from god. We enter a place without time, and a reality which places us beyond the pain and suffering of this world. We are not toys in the kingdom of god because those who go toward god freely choose the good, just as those who walk away from god will freely choose evil. You begin your path in this life, you continue it in the next. Eventually Christians hope in the resurrection, and the fulfilment of the earth's destiny where there will no longer be pain and suffering. You will then have your perfect world. Be aware that not all deist believe this, but they all live in the knowledge that the human spirit continues beyond death. You're argument is so simplistic and sententious, if you're going to be a good atheist at least read Nietzsche, he posits some interesting arguments against the belief in god.

---

(May 26, 2013 at 6:36 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote:

(May 26, 2013 at 5:40 pm)Origen Wrote: But those of us who believe in God, know that he works in the eternal and is able to turn sorrow into joy in ways we know not of.

So we don't know what god does or how it does it, but we do know that it works in the way you say it does.

Would that be a fair assessment of your outlook on this whole thing?

I, as a Christian, know this because I believe in the teachings of Christ. I believe Christ was the son of God because of the resurrection. I believe in the resurrection because of the witnessing unto death of the apostles. They all died proclaiming Christ's resurrection, there was nothing to gain by doing this but a hard life and early death, this witness is good enough for me. Other deists believe in the immortality of the soul for other reasons. We each get to God by different paths, but we all know one thing by his or her (since god is a unique being) very nature god is beyond our full understanding, but our experience of life has led us to an encounter with a divinity beyond the limit of space and time. I'd be very special indeed if I knew how god interacts with those who die in tragedy, but I do know he does. I've already said you're welcome to your despair and nihilism, why do you feel so threatened by belief in a god you believe does not exist. I'm not trying to convert you, I just want you to be aware that religion is not as easily dismissed as saying if god existed nothing bad would ever happen. That is the argument of a child, I won't believe 'cause life is shit. Read Sartre, he might help you.

(May 26, 2013 at 7:49 pm)Origen Wrote:

(May 26, 2013 at 6:36 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: So we don't know what god does or how it does it, but we do know that it works in the way you say it does.

Would that be a fair assessment of your outlook on this whole thing?

I, as a Christian, know this because I believe in the teachings of Christ. I believe Christ was the son of God because of the resurrection. I believe in the resurrection because of the witnessing unto death of the apostles. They all died proclaiming Christ's resurrection, there was nothing to gain by doing this but a hard life and early death, this witness is good enough for me. Other deists believe in the immortality of the soul for other reasons. We each get to God by different paths, but we all know one thing by his or her (since god is a unique being) very nature god is beyond our full understanding, but our experience of life has led us to an encounter with a divinity beyond the limit of space and time. I'd be very special indeed if I knew how god interacts with those who die in tragedy, but I do know he does. I've already said you're welcome to your despair and nihilism, why do you feel so threatened by belief in a god you believe does not exist. I'm not trying to convert you, I just want you to be aware that religion is not as easily dismissed as saying if god existed nothing bad would ever happen. That is the argument of a child, I won't believe 'cause life is shit. Read Sartre, he might help you.

Oh, so circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works, right?

Just so I know we're on the same page.

Please, do go on, you were assuming (asserting) I'm [we're] living a life of despair? I do so like being told what im thinking/feeling.

Read up on the word 'parody', it might help you.

(May 26, 2013 at 7:49 pm)Origen Wrote: In death our path is set toward god, or away from god. We enter a place without time, and a reality which places us beyond the pain and suffering of this world. We are not toys in the kingdom of god because those who go toward god freely choose the good, just as those who walk away from god will freely choose evil. You begin your path in this life, you continue it in the next. Eventually Christians hope in the resurrection, and the fulfilment of the earth's destiny where there will no longer be pain and suffering. You will then have your perfect world. Be aware that not all deist believe this, but they all live in the knowledge that the human spirit continues beyond death. You're argument is so simplistic and sententious, if you're going to be a good atheist at least read Nietzsche, he posits some interesting arguments against the belief in god.

You, yourself, described a world without pain and suffering as one which lacked freedom. It logically follows that Heaven is a nightmare of robotic slavery. Whether you chose to go is irrelevant, because choosing not to go is the ultimate crime. When you are in heaven, will you be able to sin? Will you have the choice to sin and the capacity to carry it out? Or, have you chosen to spend an eternity as just a toy in a diorama? I'm just trying to clarify a statement you made, because I don't think you considered the implications very well.

btw: Deism does not require any belief in spirits.