(June 2, 2013 at 5:54 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I'm talking about every time I've seen this mentioned by Muslims they say that it's extremist views. Never that it's anti Islam... because I presume that it isn't. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Fr0d0/Fidel, I know what you mean. Although both the Islamic Society of Britain and the Muslim Council of Britain spoke out against the attack, condemning it in no uncertain terms, they both stated that there was 'no justification in Islam' for the killings. As most of us know, Qu'ran 8:12 (and other passages) specifically mandates the killing of unbelievers so there is a justification, it's just one that almost all UK muslims reject in favour of a far more tolerant form of Islam. Whilst it's highly encouraging to see the public representatives of Islam formally decry the killings as 'un-islamic', it is telling that they don't address the problem of the passages that can be used to justify such action. I assume this is a political distancing from those passages to avoid backlash. Personally, I feel that ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

Deportation is looking good atm

I think it is worth mentioning the speech the English Queen gave after the 7/7 bomings, which included the phrase:

"Whatever these criminals will do, they will never change our British way of life."

In my view this is the most importent part of dealing with such attacks.
There is actualy not much one can do against such events. Terror has always happened for various different causes. The question resulting out of such attacks, is if one should listen to the attackers and start negotiating with those who still argue for such attacks.
In this case, I clearly think that one shouldnt give the attacks any room for negotiation but a simple court trial.

(June 3, 2013 at 5:56 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Deportation is looking good atm :D

Deportation of who to where?

(June 3, 2013 at 5:35 am)Ben Davis Wrote:

(June 2, 2013 at 5:54 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I'm talking about every time I've seen this mentioned by Muslims they say that it's extremist views. Never that it's anti Islam... because I presume that it isn't. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Fr0d0/Fidel, I know what you mean. Although both the Islamic Society of Britain and the Muslim Council of Britain spoke out against the attack, condemning it in no uncertain terms, they both stated that there was 'no justification in Islam' for the killings. As most of us know, Qu'ran 8:12 (and other passages) specifically mandates the killing of unbelievers so there is a justification, it's just one that almost all UK muslims reject in favour of a far more tolerant form of Islam. Whilst it's highly encouraging to see the public representatives of Islam formally decry the killings as 'un-islamic', it is telling that they don't address the problem of the passages that can be used to justify such action. I assume this is a political distancing from those passages to avoid backlash. Personally, I feel that ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

Agreed, and I think that's the danger of the action that has been taken proceeding these attacks.

I think a lot of the élite would like us to believe that these kind of occurances are quite rare, but really, they're not. Not too long ago there was a very similar plot exposed by the police and Mi5 about some guys in Birmingham who wanted to behead a Muslim solder who'd fought in Afghanistan.

Also, if reports are to be believed, the conspiracy that these two men were involved in actually included a lot more people in their local community who were also exposed to extremism and espoused committing attacks on soliders and civilians alike (more info will come out, no doubt, in the future).

I'm also very skeptical of the MCOB and the ISB. Extremists have been foudn in their ranks a number of times and some of their 'moderate' members have been found to have rather extreme and antisemetic views. I also agree with the WIKI articles that they're generally not representative of 'Muslims' as a whole (which one may argue is an impossibility given the wide range of views and lack of coherent structure that is reflective of the religion as a whole unlike, say, Catholicism etc). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Coun..._Criticism . I think the MCB were really just a go-to voice for New Labour when they needed a Muslim voice to echo their political mantra's, despite not really every looking into who they were and what they stood for. A number of Muslim friends I have actively refuse to support the MCB or stand behind it because they believe they are simply political stooges and/or religious extremists.

I think your points about the refusal to confront the passages that lend weight to the views of the extremists is one that folk should take on board. It's a point that is often overlooked but one that needs to be confronted, like you say.

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(June 3, 2013 at 6:37 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 5:56 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Deportation is looking good atm

Deportation of who to where?

As far as I'm aware the guys who murdered the solider were British of Nigerian descent. There's nowhere to deport them as they have British passports and are British citizens.

Everyone in Britain is of "foreign descent" if you go back a few generations. These guys were born and raised here, they're as British as I am.

(June 3, 2013 at 7:17 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Everyone in Britain is of "foreign descent" if you go back a few generations. These guys were born and raised here, they're as British as I am.

Exactly. That's the point I was agreeing with.

But from a legal perspective, deportation of these two would be an impossibility, bracketing out the anthropological perspetive.

(June 2, 2013 at 5:56 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: We need to include religion as part of the analysis when we're looking at the MO of guys like this and why they did why they did.

No, we don't need to include religion. It's pretty clear why the militants are doing what they're doing, they think it's a justified retaliation for the killings Iraq/Aghanistan/Yemen/Pakistan etc. No amount of religious studies is going to stop that because their motivations are primarily political in nature. If the United States and its allies slaughtered thousands of Chinese in mainland China, I can guarantee that there would at least some blowback on US and British soil. The CIA and MI6 both warned the US and its allies of some type of blowback if we enter Iraq and Afghanistan. The only way to deal with this problem is to make an example of the perpetrators. Unfortunately we don't have the death penalty here.

Hmmm tough call.

(June 3, 2013 at 7:28 am)ideologue08 Wrote: The only way to deal with this problem is to make an example of the perpetrators. Unfortunately we don't have the death penalty here.

Yeah! Killing people is wrong! Lets demonstrate that by... killing more people?