For example???????

(June 17, 2013 at 9:58 pm)Polaris Wrote:

(June 17, 2013 at 9:51 pm)cato123 Wrote: I get it now. You're just randomly spitting out facts without drawing a conclusion. Got it.

You want the conclusion, American?

Societies that have shunned religion for secular control have been the most destructive and most dangerous to humanity.

It's a real simple reason for that, but I guess American atheists (with some British ones as well...apple does not fall far from the tree) don't like admitting it....

It's a lot simpler to control with religion, so many of the dictatorial societies in the 20th century who wished to supplant religion for total control resorted to violence to gain some of the same control. Even using an extremely high number for deaths attributed to religion, these societies helped to foster an atmosphere of hate that killed five to ten times the amount of people killed due to religion over the course of 10 thousand years only in the course of half a century.

There is, however, a hall of shame for liars and assholes..

"so many of the dictatorial societies in the 20th century who wished to supplant religion for total control resorted to violence ..."

I think that might have been the problem right there - not the abandonment of religion but the replacement of it with total control.

This is the antithesis of what atheism is about. Atheism is about freedom - freedom to not believe, freedom to be responsible for your own actions (within the laws of your country) without threat from a sky dictator.

If the alternative to religion is state control then I too am against it. If, on the other hand it is more like the Scandinavian model (probably the most atheistic culture on the earth) then that looks preferable to me.

Didn't we just get a post showing that violent crime is falling in the States? That, at a time when atheism is at an all time high over there?

Yeah, truth is, there's only been one regime that I know of that was specificly atheistic that took significant political/military power and that was Stalin. Even then, they didn't kill in the name of atheism, they killed for the state; there's a huge difference there. Both religious theocracies and Stalins' communist state both demanded blind obedience and dished out harsh punishment for anyone who questioned them.

Other than Stalin, most western governments are more apathetic than atheist. The philosophy towards religion seems to be "You do what you want, we're staying out of it." I like it that way. Some governments like that are going to be aggressive jerks, largely because there are so many goverments with that basic policy. But if you want to look at the governments that are threatening to start nuclear war, there's the middle east nations that are all basically theocracies and there's North Korea that's essentially mandated that their people worship Kim Jung Un. Those are not what I would consider atheist states at all.

(June 18, 2013 at 12:38 am)max-greece Wrote: "so many of the dictatorial societies in the 20th century who wished to supplant religion for total control resorted to violence ..."

I think that might have been the problem right there - not the abandonment of religion but the replacement of it with total control.

This is the antithesis of what atheism is about. Atheism is about freedom - freedom to not believe, freedom to be responsible for your own actions (within the laws of your country) without threat from a sky dictator.

If the alternative to religion is state control then I too am against it. If, on the other hand it is more like the Scandinavian model (probably the most atheistic culture on the earth) then that looks preferable to me.

Didn't we just get a post showing that violent crime is falling in the States? That, at a time when atheism is at an all time high over there?

Well that would still be atheism. Atheism is just about a lack of belief in a god or gods. You can have a secular society (that does not seek to control) like in some European nations (though they have some strict laws of their own) or you can have secular societies that seek to take religion out of the picture because they don't want to have a competition for power...religion is far from the only issue they seek to supplant. Both tend to be atheist (or secular if you may) and are completely different from one another.

Atheism is not even close to being a significant factor in America....it's a minority of the population....a rather small minority. The reason for the reduction in crime since the peak in the 1990s has been, until recently when some of the most violent and poor cities reduced their police forces due to budget constraints, was the improvement in law enforcement and more felons in prison. There are some are explanations, but they tend to have racially intensive rationale.

As much a I enjoy laughing at the face of ignorance, I would rather see the world grow up.

Seriously. It's getting annoying. I'm surrounded by five year olds at work. "I know you don't believe, but I'll be praying for you."

And I'll make a wish list for Santa, even though you don't believe. So?

It sucks hearing people talk to you about something that they consider you ignorant about when you feel they are naïve for believing it at all. I wish I could say, "Look here, you're the fool, not me." Oh, and... "Stop calling me dear or honey!"

I vote yes! World atheism.

(June 18, 2013 at 1:43 am)Polaris Wrote:

(June 18, 2013 at 12:38 am)max-greece Wrote: "so many of the dictatorial societies in the 20th century who wished to supplant religion for total control resorted to violence ..."

I think that might have been the problem right there - not the abandonment of religion but the replacement of it with total control.

This is the antithesis of what atheism is about. Atheism is about freedom - freedom to not believe, freedom to be responsible for your own actions (within the laws of your country) without threat from a sky dictator.

If the alternative to religion is state control then I too am against it. If, on the other hand it is more like the Scandinavian model (probably the most atheistic culture on the earth) then that looks preferable to me.

Didn't we just get a post showing that violent crime is falling in the States? That, at a time when atheism is at an all time high over there?

Well that would still be atheism. Atheism is just about a lack of belief in a god or gods. You can have a secular society (that does not seek to control) like in some European nations (though they have some strict laws of their own) or you can have secular societies that seek to take religion out of the picture because they don't want to have a competition for power...religion is far from the only issue they seek to supplant. Both tend to be atheist (or secular if you may) and are completely different from one another.

Atheism is not even close to being a significant factor in America....it's a minority of the population....a rather small minority. The reason for the reduction in crime since the peak in the 1990s has been, until recently when some of the most violent and poor cities reduced their police forces due to budget constraints, was the improvement in law enforcement and more felons in prison. There are some are explanations, but they tend to have racially intensive rationale.

So we are in agreement. There is nothing inherently wrong with an atheist/secular society and it can demonstrate an equally high (if not higher) standard of morality than a religious one.

As to the reasons for the fall in the crime rate there are many theories - if you want a radical one check out Freakonomics which relates Wade Vs Roe to the fall in crime.

The point I was making, however, is that atheism does not appearr to be related to crime rates.

As for the proportion of Atheists in the US do we have any uptodate numbers? I understand it is the fastest growing "belief" in the US.

Funnily enough I happen to live in one of the more theist cultures. Greece is about 90% Greek Orthodox although very few of them are active (regularly attend a church service) and extremely few under the age of 70.

Come Easter though - and the Church is packed - not that this has anything to do with the slap up meal that follows....

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(June 18, 2013 at 2:28 am)Ivy Wrote: As much a I enjoy laughing at the face of ignorance, I would rather see the world grow up.

Seriously. It's getting annoying. I'm surrounded by five year olds at work. "I know you don't believe, but I'll be praying for you."

And I'll make a wish list for Santa, even though you don't believe. So?

It sucks hearing people talk to you about something that they consider you ignorant about when you feel they are naïve for believing it at all. I wish I could say, "Look here, you're the fool, not me." Oh, and... "Stop calling me dear or honey!"

I vote yes! World atheism.

Its funny because although I have replied twice to this thread I still haven't stated my position. This is simply because I can't see it happening. People want to believe - and if its not religion its palm-reading or Astrology or some other nonsense.

It would be great if we could, as a species, grow out of the need to feel that there is something pre-ordained or something looking after us but I fear that there is an innate need to be protected by some invisible friend.

It may be that this is simply a consequence of evolution putting a big brain in a primate - one of the side affects if you like.

Yeah the legalization of abortion was the racial rationale, but I disprove the moral basis of such claims.

My favorite societies are secular...the Nordic nations, but the atheists in Europe tend to think more rationally than the ones I have seen come from America. It's funny, but the Bible is the most popular book in Sweden...they don't believe in the religious aspects, but they're not afraid to read it which is the vibe I get from certain atheists....though it's probably harder for a believer to read a religious book from a competing faith (I had a friend leave a class because it taught Ancient Israel [and by connection the OT...it's a reference point] from a secular standing).

Islam is the fasted growing religion, but I'm not sure how that favors in the US since I have not talked my Moslem friends since I left college. The issue with saying atheism is the fastest growing is that it is grouped with those who stated "no religion," a third of which are theists, another third of which are agnostics.

Crime is not related to background so much as a need meets an opportunity....aka if a man is starving and sees a market stall unattended.

(June 17, 2013 at 8:20 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: However, during my time as a Christian, I heard copious amounts of comments in passing that suggested that individual was possibly mentally unstable. If they weren't bound by eternal threats of punishment, then they would be harming society.

An example of this is one of my good friends at the time who, in passing, said that atheists should be having as much sex as possible since there's no objective to life. This means that if he were to deconvert right now, there's no mental filter in place to stop him from potentially getting sex in ways that violate other people's rights, as quite clearly, he projected his belief that he would want as much sex as possible.

It seems to me that unfortunately, religion is necessary for a select few who are on the border of becoming a real danger to society, and thus I do not wish for them to be atheists for their sake and mine.

Religious people say that always, if there are no punishments so why being good or abstaining from evil?
But if you ask them: How do you know that this is "evil"?

The knowledge of "good" and "evil" is, somehow, innate in the human race but not religions. When disposing of religion even deep religious people behave normally, if not better, without need to religious roles. That is, What makes them know the difference between good and evil without religion makes them also act according to their knowledge of good and evil.