(June 18, 2013 at 1:43 am)Polaris Wrote: Well that would still be atheism. Atheism is just about a lack of belief in a god or gods. You can have a secular society (that does not seek to control) like in some European nations (though they have some strict laws of their own) or you can have secular societies that seek to take religion out of the picture because they don't want to have a competition for power...religion is far from the only issue they seek to supplant. Both tend to be atheist (or secular if you may) and are completely different from one another.

To the degree that a nation attempts to suppress or oppress religion, it is failing to be secular. Political secularism is the position that the government should be as neutral as practical regarding religion.

(June 18, 2013 at 1:43 am)Polaris Wrote: Atheism is not even close to being a significant factor in America....it's a minority of the population....a rather small minority.

Yep, about six percent. It was three percent not so long ago, but still a small minority. Not as small as, say, Muslims, but pretty small. The avid secularists among us have a somewhat disproportionate impact because they tend to pick the side the law is on in disputes and the media still finds them shocking enough for more coverage than our actions really warrant. I'm reminded of the local news station that did a coupld of man-in-the-street interviews regarding our billboard (Don't believe in God? You're not alone.), one guy to be reasonable, another one to have an apoplectic fit about it.

(June 18, 2013 at 1:43 am)Polaris Wrote: The reason for the reduction in crime since the peak in the 1990s has been, until recently when some of the most violent and poor cities reduced their police forces due to budget constraints, was the improvement in law enforcement and more felons in prison. There are some are explanations, but they tend to have racially intensive rationale.

Agree with your conclusion. The most that can be said about atheism regarding it is that doubling our percentage of the population over the same time period doesn't seem to have prevented those other factors from working.

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(June 18, 2013 at 3:13 am)Polaris Wrote: Yeah the legalization of abortion was the racial rationale, but I disprove the moral basis of such claims.

My favorite societies are secular...the Nordic nations, but the atheists in Europe tend to think more rationally than the ones I have seen come from America. It's funny, but the Bible is the most popular book in Sweden...they don't believe in the religious aspects, but they're not afraid to read it which is the vibe I get from certain atheists....though it's probably harder for a believer to read a religious book from a competing faith (I had a friend leave a class because it taught Ancient Israel [and by connection the OT...it's a reference point] from a secular standing).

You know, there is a study showing the group most informed about world religions is atheists (followed closely by Jews). I've read the Bible through twice, the Bhagavad Ghita once. I admit the Book of Mormon defeated my tolerance for boredom. I keep meaning to get around to the Qu'ran, but my appetite for religious texts has waned in my old age.

(June 18, 2013 at 1:43 am)Polaris Wrote: Islam is the fasted growing religion, but I'm not sure how that favors in the US since I have not talked my Moslem friends since I left college. The issue with saying atheism is the fastest growing is that it is grouped with those who stated "no religion," a third of which are theists, another third of which are agnostics.

About 20% no religion, about 6% atheists. Nones are up by 50%, atheists have doubled.

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(June 18, 2013 at 5:01 am)ideologue08 Wrote: yh, I agree with that. I would also say that the knowledge of God's existence is also innate. Religious scriptures are there to provide information we can't get for ourselves, because if we could get that information there would be no use for them. E.g the Torah tells jews not to break the sabbath, to kill the animal by invoking God's name over the slaughter etc. this is information which is not possible to find out except by divine revelation.

If your position is that all atheists are secretly theists, why bother talking to us?

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(June 18, 2013 at 5:07 am)ideologue08 Wrote:

(June 18, 2013 at 12:38 am)max-greece Wrote: Didn't we just get a post showing that violent crime is falling in the States? That, at a time when atheism is at an all time high over there?

Correlation =/=> Causation

Polaris claimed correlation between high atheism and bad societal consequences. The stats do a fine job of showing there is no such correlation.

(June 18, 2013 at 1:05 pm)Manowar Wrote: I would like everyone to be an Atheist. It's really the best option and it's going to happen sooner or later anyway.

Manowar

For those whose imagination is stone age they can't understand why they wouldn't live a life of indolence and dissipation without god, I would say they should never be allowed to vote, but should be encourage to remain theists of the docile variety. It's more humane than turning them into compost.

All these systems have theirs advantages and unconvenients. Guess which ?

As to the poll. I'm easy to please, three would be fine with me.

My atheism is one of the least significant things about me, I'd rather be surrounded by thoughtful theists than unthinking atheists.

(June 18, 2013 at 1:39 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: If your position is that all atheists are secretly theists, why bother talking to us?

Not secret theists no lol, but it's easy to suppress something innate, not everyone acts in accordance with their subconscious, for example we know deep down that murder is wrong, but there are still a heck of a lot of murderers and rapists etc. that does mean that it's not innate? not necessarily, it just means that they ignored it or suppressed it in favour of another set of morals. This is a purely faith position, it can't be proven but if you wanted an explanation, I don't think you're a secret theist, I think you've successfully 'destroyed' or 'suppressed' the idea of a god in your subconscious. (and please I don't need someone saying that I said atheism= murder/rape, being on this forum that cannot be ruled out). If you don't like that analogy think of something else that is innate like taking care of the disabled/poor/orphans.

(June 18, 2013 at 1:39 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Polaris claimed correlation between high atheism and bad societal consequences. The stats do a fine job of showing there is no such correlation.

Ok.

But, Ideologue, I mainly claim the opposite. I say that many theists, if not most, are in fact atheists, non-theists or agnostics. They just suppress reason in both their consciousness and subconsciousness

Nice Simsim

(June 17, 2013 at 6:49 pm)wwjs Wrote: If all of them decided on their own that they have no reason to believe in Gods then sure.

This. If everyone came to the realization that it's just us and decided to stop wasting trillions of man-hours chasing phantoms, that'd be pretty awesome.

(June 17, 2013 at 6:49 pm)wwjs Wrote: If all of them decided on their own that they have no reason to believe in Gods then sure.

So you wouldn't be satisfied if the entire world became atheist at the point of the sword? I know some atheists who find that thought jizz-worthy

Look who's talking.