(June 25, 2013 at 11:44 am)Rahul Wrote: haha I'm not making much of a claim. "Odd things" could mean most anything. I'm agnostic about what those odd things might turn out to be.

Fair enough and sorry if I misunderstood.

I personally have seen some strange things when I was a child but I attribute it to childhood imagination since no one else saw it and haven't seen anything else since. The intellectually honest thing, which it sounds like you've done, is to say "I don't know what that was".

I experienced a few things some 6 years ago with my ex-wife that we at first wanted to attribute to ghostly apparitions. It was inexplicable, which is why we jumped to the conclusion.

I realize nowadays that it was a logical fallacy to do so, that saying, "I heard strange sounds, so it must have a been a ghost" was akin to saying "I don't know how the universe has such strict laws of physics, therefore God". Filling in the gaps with Ghosts, Gods, flying spaghetti monsters are, to me, a way of halting growth, development, and discovery. If everyone had been happy with just thinking that God created everything, then the facts of Evolution on Earth never would have surfaced.

I don't know if Ghosts are real, but since we are hard pressed to prove they exist, I will say that I don't think they do. If evidence one day surfaces that is undeniable and scientific in nature, then I will agree with the findings and then believe in Ghosts and other such apparitions.

(June 25, 2013 at 11:42 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: You might think that God created a strictly natural universe where we don't have to be scared of hauntings and we get one shot at the brass ring. Or you might not believe in any god but still believe there's some natural mechanic behind consciousness that survives the death of the brain.

Hey, let me have a turn steering this hijacked thread. Looks like fun! But first let me bid a cursory hello to BadWritersParty and welcome him to ours.

I wonder how most people interpret "natural" versus "supernatural". To me, if gods exist, they and everything they create are natural. They would still be magical so long as we can't guess the mechanism of their doings, but if such exist they are part of the landscape of the great what is. It does no good for us to arbitrarily draw a circle around part of what exists and label it natural. It is much better to set forth prepared to bestow the title of "natural" upon everything we encounter. I haven't personally encountered any gods but if I do I'm giving it to them. If there be jokers in the deck, then they be part of the natural order of things, pure and simple.

I now return the steering wheel to BadWriterSparty. Where to next, boss?

---

(June 25, 2013 at 11:53 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(June 25, 2013 at 11:44 am)Rahul Wrote: haha I'm not making much of a claim. "Odd things" could mean most anything. I'm agnostic about what those odd things might turn out to be.

Fair enough and sorry if I misunderstood.

I personally have seen some strange things when I was a child but I attribute it to childhood imagination since no one else saw it and haven't seen anything else since. The intellectually honest thing, which it sounds like you've done, is to say "I don't know what that was".

Me too. I wonder if there would be interest in a thread on strange things experienced as small children. I would definitely be interested in hearing about yours DeistP to see how mine might be similar. I wonder if anyone has researched such things.

Welcome!

Is this guy from TNMT?

(June 25, 2013 at 12:03 pm)whateverist Wrote: I wonder how most people interpret "natural" versus "supernatural". To me, if gods exist, they and everything they create are natural. boss?

Exactly!

You've hit the nail on why I can say I'm a deist who rejects claims of the supernatural. If it exists, it can be studied or understood and therefore has properties. If I'm right that God exists, then if we somehow had infinite knowledge, we could understand the nature, properties and limitations of God.

(June 25, 2013 at 11:53 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Me too. I wonder if there would be interest in a thread on strange things experienced as small children. I would definitely be interested in hearing about yours DeistP to see how mine might be similar. I wonder if anyone has researched such things.

As a child, I thought our basement was haunted. I kept telling myself there's no such things as ghosts (I was raised by atheist parents) but it all still seemed frightening enough. On some level, I knew it was irrational which is why I never told anyone but even still, I never went down there alone. Whenever I was alone in our basement, I sometimes hallucinated heavy breathing, a strange gurgling voice and once even felt a hand on my shoulder.

The problem went away somewhere around the time when I came of age. I went down into the basement actively looking for the thing, challenging my own fears and expecting to find it was all in my head. Sure enough, no sign of any ghosts. Since then, I've been the type to open umbrellas inside, say "bloody Mary" three times in the mirror or "tempt fate" by saying "what could possibly go wrong", etc. I've learned the way to conquer superstitious fears is to demonstrate how it's all just in the mind.

In retrospect, it's not hard to figure out what it was that I experienced as a child. Basements are dark, scary places away from the sun, often the scenes for ghost stories. Our imagination is so intense, especially as children, that self-induced hallucinations aren't hard to come by.

Same thing is true for topic drift...

"Spirits" are for drinking.

Welcome.

(June 25, 2013 at 12:02 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: I realize nowadays that it was a logical fallacy to do so, that saying, "I heard strange sounds, so it must have a been a ghost" was akin to saying "I don't know how the universe has such strict laws of physics, therefore God".

For me, it's a sense of wonder that I find compelling to find out more. How did "God" do it and, more importantly, how can we? Terraforming, going to the stars, it's all part of our potential, I believe. Further, I believe that was the intent, part of the divine spark of reason.

I suppose there's no rational reason to assume that God exists or there is nothing to "intend" anything. Perhaps all that came together in our evolution that made our civilization possible was just us winning the cosmic lottery. Still, it's an instinct I can't seem to get rid of (I went through roughly two weeks of trying. Seriously. I was asking myself what was wrong with me, why can't I be a normal atheist. I guess it was a crisis of non-faith).

Deism for me is just a truce between those instincts and my skeptical brain, a way for me to keep such a sense of wonder about the natural universe safely and strictly grounded in the natural.

(June 25, 2013 at 12:30 pm)Minimalist Wrote: "Spirits" are for drinking.

Now those "spirits" I do believe in!

(June 25, 2013 at 9:48 am)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Looks like this is the place to say hello.

So...hello.

We need more than a "hello". DNA samples and credit card numbers. That or where you from, how long you been an atheist, do you like barbecue kittens, and yes, I am an ABBA FAN.

Oh and my standard opening line for newbies

Be sure to barbecue kittens, record the NFL without their permission and rip the tags off of your mattress.

You want to know what I my to explain my personal religious definition... Well, that is tricky. The simplest way to explain it is I feel a deep connection with the world. I enjoy religious studies, meditation, the acts that make life seem spiritual. I find no proof of god, but I find no reason to attribute any spiritual phenomenon to one. The world is a magical place.