(December 24, 2009 at 8:50 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: What a fantastic thread and OP - I have never ever even come across a thread or OP that even comes anywhere near as being as absolutely incredibly totally utterly completely and entirely enlightened as this one.

InspectorCritic. You're a Godsend.

Pity God doesn't exist (well, almost certainly ).

EvF

I'm sure nothing named 'god' exists, since there's insufficient meaning in the sentence "god exists".

That's how you interpret it Purple Rabbit

I myself personally believe that I know of no evidence whatsoever of any absolute meaning or values in the universe whatsoever anyway.... to some people "god" has meaning to others not. And the meaning differs to those who do give it meaning. To me it simply means "deity" which means a supernatural creator.

EvF

(December 24, 2009 at 4:10 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: That's how you interpret it Purple Rabbit

Not only me EvF.

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:I myself personally believe that I know of no evidence whatsoever of any absolute meaning or values in the universe whatsoever anyway....

You belief you have no evidence. Is that belief in ignorance? A yet 'higher' form of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam?

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:...to some people "god" has meaning to others not. And the meaning differs to those who do give it meaning. To me it simply means "deity" which means a supernatural creator.

Unambiguity of meaning of the word god is precisely what makes the sentence "god exists" an inadequate proposition.

"Oh god, the David Icke tangent in the 9/11 discussion may have attracted some loonies. "
You think they heard us. eeeeeeeeeep!

(December 24, 2009 at 5:16 pm)Purple Rabbit Wrote: Not only me EvF.

Not only you, no. But I mean this is a subjective thing is it not?

Quote:You belief you have no evidence. Is that belief in ignorance? A yet 'higher' form of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam?

I mean I know of no evidence. Any disbelief I have is because I know of no evidence. Just as you no of no evidence of God. That has got nothing to do with the Argument From Ignorance as I've said to you many times before. Sorry but you appear to not understand what it is...

The Argument from Ignorance would be if I claimed that a belief was only true because it it hasn't been proven false or only false because it hasn't been proven true.

To claim that I am arguing from ignorance for not holding a belief because I know of no evidence is kind of silly to say the least IMO.

Prabbit Wrote:Unambiguity of meaning of the word god is precisely what makes the sentence "god exists" an inadequate proposition.

I presume you meant ambiguity?

Well I don't consider it that vague a term. I understand it to mostly mean 'deity', often the abrahamic one...

You appear to be interested in 'Spiritual Enlightenment' somewhat and IMO the world 'Spiritual' is the most ambiguous word in the English language. It can mean anything the person wants it to mean 'to them', and at least "God" often means a supernatural creator/being or 'deity'.

That is why the word 'Spiritual' is my least favourite word in the English language. I can't fucking stand that word I think it sucks... but others may not agree with me. Just as I disagree with people who think the word "God" is particularly ambiguous......

Theists often make it am ambiguous word with their metaphorical bullshit talk... but I think it very often means 'deity' whereas 'Spiritual', as I said, in my experience seems to be able to mean absolutely fucking anything the 'spiritual person' interested in 'spirituality' wants it to.

Spiritual can mean spiritual like related to 'spirits', or it can be completely unrelated to that since you can get it in a secular sense of 'spiritual atheists'... it can mean metaphorically anything the person wants it to mean. It's what it means 'to them', it seems. And then it can also mean 'spiritualism' as in those frauds who talk to the dead (or think they are!!). The paranormal bullshit...

And 'spirit' of course can even mean it as in 'fighting spirit' or "That boy has spirit" or.... alcoholic spirits such as brandy and whisky!!!

/end rant.

EvF

I have yet to see anyone describe any practical or observable aspect of "spiritual health" that doesn't entirely steal from the definitions of mental and emotional well-being - In fact i would go as far as to say that the word "Spirituality" is an entirely unnecessary re-branding of already existing concepts and serves no purpose other than to muddle up the understanding of what it means to be 'at peace'.

I'd say spiritual health could be very practical in the form of moral guidance. I certainly felt that having being failed badly by medical professionals who experimented on me not considering the whole person as it didn't enter their remit as they saw it.

(December 25, 2009 at 10:55 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:

Purple Rabbit Wrote:You belief you have no evidence. Is that belief in ignorance? A yet 'higher' form of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam?

I mean I know of no evidence. Any disbelief I have is because I know of no evidence. Just as you no of no evidence of God. That has got nothing to do with the Argument From Ignorance as I've said to you many times before. Sorry but you appear to not understand what it is...

The Argument from Ignorance would be if I claimed that a belief was only true because it it hasn't been proven false or only false because it hasn't been proven true.

To claim that I am arguing from ignorance for not holding a belief because I know of no evidence is kind of silly to say the least IMO.

Well, I really was responding to your phrasing in the form (A) "I believe I have no evidence for p" instead of (B) "I have no evidence for p". The accompaning emoticon means I was teasing you a little with a reference to our earlier discussion.

If you are trying to emphasize your human infallibilty with A, it does not stop there.
For if you do not know anything absolute, than you don't even know absolutely if you are believing you have no evidence. A becomes "I believe that I believe I have no evidence for p" and everybody can see there's infinite regress from there on.

So I think we're in agremeant on the appeal to ignorance, though my preferred phrasing of it reads as follows:

An appeal to ignorance is made when is said (1A) "There is no evidence for p, therefore, not-p" or (2A) "There is no evidence against p, therefore, p".

I think the word "only" in your version has some possible ambiguity to it.

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:

Purple Rabbit Wrote:Unambiguity of meaning of the word god is precisely what makes the sentence "god exists" an inadequate proposition.

I presume you meant ambiguity?

Yes.

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:Well I don't consider it that vague a term. I understand it to mostly mean 'deity', often the abrahamic one...

You appear to be interested in 'Spiritual Enlightenment' somewhat and IMO the world 'Spiritual' is the most ambiguous word in the English language. It can mean anything the person wants it to mean 'to them', and at least "God" often means a supernatural creator/being or 'deity'.

That is why the word 'Spiritual' is my least favourite word in the English language. I can't fucking stand that word I think it sucks... but others may not agree with me. Just as I disagree with people who think the word "God" is particularly ambiguous......

Theists often make it am ambiguous word with their metaphorical bullshit talk... but I think it very often means 'deity' whereas 'Spiritual', as I said, in my experience seems to be able to mean absolutely fucking anything the 'spiritual person' interested in 'spirituality' wants it to.

Spiritual can mean spiritual like related to 'spirits', or it can be completely unrelated to that since you can get it in a secular sense of 'spiritual atheists'... it can mean metaphorically anything the person wants it to mean. It's what it means 'to them', it seems. And then it can also mean 'spiritualism' as in those frauds who talk to the dead (or think they are!!). The paranormal bullshit...

And 'spirit' of course can even mean it as in 'fighting spirit' or "That boy has spirit" or.... alcoholic spirits such as brandy and whisky!!!

/end rant.

EvF

I'm interested in spiritual enlightenment as a cultural phenomenon that, like religion, claims absolute truth. However I I'm not a seeker of spiritual enlightenment myself, except when you use it to mean something as broad like 'understanding of the world'. Also I have argued that the word 'spiritual' (not ''spiritual enlightenment') has been since long hi-jacked by religion and mystycism and that it should be reclaimed by reason. Spiritual to me is about contemplative emotion and awareness levels arising in the brain through natural causes. And we should reclaim the term just because it's been abused by religion and mystycism as an argument for the supernatural, as an argument that naturalism does not address certain aspects of existence.

---

(December 26, 2009 at 3:53 am)theVOID Wrote: I have yet to see anyone describe any practical or observable aspect of "spiritual health" that doesn't entirely steal from the definitions of mental and emotional well-being - In fact i would go as far as to say that the word "Spirituality" is an entirely unnecessary re-branding of already existing concepts and serves no purpose other than to muddle up the understanding of what it means to be 'at peace'.

I agree, although 'at peace' might not be the phrasing I would use for myself.

(December 26, 2009 at 6:32 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I'd say spiritual health could be very practical in the form of moral guidance.

I'd say mental well-being could be very practical in the form of moral guidance.

See my point?

Have you any other statements that can be made about 'spiritual health' that i could not just replace with the less ambiguous terms 'mental well-being' or 'emotional well-being'?

Quote:I certainly felt that having being failed badly by medical professionals who experimented on me not considering the whole person as it didn't enter their remit as they saw it.

Sorry for your agony, wouldn't wish it upon anyone.

Looks like there is a few JACK ATHIEST on this forum in which I had enticipaited. Since there is some bible verse that their religon will portray the other side in order to cause chaos, disruption and erosion of forces.

Just copy paste the video on you tube. Most interesting a REPTILIAN is like a Mormon anphibian will snicker and invalidate to remain hidden. But I know more I have nuke two Reptilian Reservations one in Arizona one in Texas.
They were the spookiest looking charactors.