Though this is a lot more fun and interesting than trying to argue about evolution with cretinists.

I just can't get my head around the idea that you think that the prediction of the path of a falling rock will in any way prove (or disprove) determinism.

(July 11, 2013 at 8:49 am)Red Celt Wrote: I just can't get my head around the idea that you think that the prediction of the path of a falling rock will in any way prove (or disprove) determinism.

Do you understand what an emergent system is?

(July 11, 2013 at 8:57 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(July 11, 2013 at 8:49 am)Red Celt Wrote: I just can't get my head around the idea that you think that the prediction of the path of a falling rock will in any way prove (or disprove) determinism.

Do you understand what an emergent system is?

As much as any other layman does, yes.

I know, I know, but what -would be- sufficient for that sort of definition of anything? I couldn't accurately define myself with such a standard. Does this say something about the status and contents of who I am, or does it say something about my ability to communicate and perceive myself in totality, to make successful predictions about myself? Have you ever tried to apply the requirement of complete knowledge to some other, perhaps pet, concept?

While you can predict that the rock will ultimately roll to the bottom of the hill, you cannot predict the precise path that it will take.

Then we look at the emergent system represented by a conscious being capable of making random choices.

Good luck with predicting that.

Therefore it is impossible to prove that the universe is deterministic.

If, on the other hand, you can provide such a proof......

(July 11, 2013 at 9:06 am)Zen Badger Wrote: While you can predict that the rock will ultimately roll to the bottom of the hill, you cannot predict the precise path that it will take.

Then we look at the emergent system represented by a conscious being capable of making random choices.

Good luck with predicting that.

Therefore it is impossible to prove that the universe is deterministic.

If, on the other hand, you can provide such a proof......

That path of the rock can be predicted.

And. Again. Can you provide proof that the universe is not deterministic.

All I'm seeing is "Argh! Very complicated, ergo God", when it should be "Argh! Very complicated, ergo more computational power and knowledge required".

(July 11, 2013 at 9:06 am)Zen Badger Wrote: While you can predict that the rock will ultimately roll to the bottom of the hill, you cannot predict the precise path that it will take.

That's fine. What we -can- predict is definitely evidence of deterministic behavior so long as we can continue to predict it. As I mentioned to someone else, we can always imagine that the moment we lose predictive ability things behave in an entirely different way than they did before.

Quote:Then we look at the emergent system represented by a conscious being capable of making random choices.

Good luck with predicting that.

"random choices" would be more an issue of the pov of the observer in this case. Again could be an inability to measure - but it could, as above, be that things are behaving differently -before- and -after- we are capable of measuring them. Perhaps something is bootstrapping itself - a special exception.

Quote:Therefore it is impossible to prove that the universe is deterministic.

If, on the other hand, you can provide such a proof......

Lets not go so far as to call it impossible, as though our competence was a description of the fabric of the cosmos. Lets say that we are simply incapable of proving such at this time (as in the examples above). That doesn't mean that we can't collect evidence, or that what we can measure and predict should not be considered when we ponder what can't be.

(July 11, 2013 at 9:11 am)Red Celt Wrote:

(July 11, 2013 at 9:06 am)Zen Badger Wrote: While you can predict that the rock will ultimately roll to the bottom of the hill, you cannot predict the precise path that it will take.

Then we look at the emergent system represented by a conscious being capable of making random choices.

Good luck with predicting that.

Therefore it is impossible to prove that the universe is deterministic.

If, on the other hand, you can provide such a proof......

That path of the rock can be predicted.

So you can accurately predict every twist and tumble of that rock as it careens down the hill. And the exact point it will come to rest as well as its orientation?

Quote:And. Again. Can you provide proof that the universe is not deterministic.

All I'm seeing is "Argh! Very complicated, ergo God", when it should be "Argh! Very complicated, ergo more computational power and knowledge required".

No, not "god", just your inability to prove that the universe is deterministic.

As I said emergent systems imply a random universe.

(July 11, 2013 at 9:32 am)Zen Badger Wrote: As I said emergent systems imply a random universe.

...............how?

For reference, an emergent system is fine, but systems do emerge following predictable laws and behaviors as well. Maybe the ones we can't make predictions about don't. Maybe they're different. Similarly, a non-deteministic behaviour or universe - a random universe, would be one in which the circumstances or state of any given thing had no bearing in a future state. Even our predictions to support such a hypothesis would be expected to yield random, or non-deterministic results/success rates.