(July 24, 2013 at 10:45 am)ronedee Wrote: No theist says "we don't have an answer"...or "we don't know yet"! That's what agnostics and "certain" atheists say!

Yes, that's the problem: you assert knowledge, when what you really have are beliefs. If you can't show it, you don't know it, and you theists have never been able to show a single damn thing that is truthful about your god claims.

Quote:You are the one w/o "proof"!

And that is why you were told (and misunderstood) that you don't understand the burden of proof; you are the one making the claim, therefore you are the one required to prove it. The atheist saying "I don't believe you," requires no proof.

We just don't believe your unevidenced assertions.

Quote:that is the point! You don't know..... or want to know. You [all] are in the minority that don't believe.

Three things. One, yes, we are intellectually honest enough to say we don't know; we won't lie and claim our beliefs are true without evidence like you are. Two, stop with all this "want to know," crap. It's just a comforting lie you tell yourself to silence that little voice in your head that asks "what if what I'm presenting just isn't convincing?" Three, so what? The majority isn't always right. The majority once thought the earth was flat. Your god belief is just the next receding mass delusion.

Quote:The proof is that everything material "exists".

"Stuff exists, therefore god." Really. Fucking really?

Quote: The proof is that there was a beginning,

Not necessarily. Our current universe began to exist, but there's always the possibility that it is eternal, and existed in some other state before the big bang. How do you intend to prove your assertion?

Quote: and there will certainly be an end.

To our current universe, yes. Do you intend to prove your knowledge claim as to what lies beyond that?

Quote: Something, or someone was responsible for life to begin.

Yep, and we have scientific evidence to prove that the underpinnings of life can uprise from purely natural means. See, that's... you know, evidence?

Quote:You choose to think that life just appeared from nothing. That is a logically false assertion.

It's also a strawman. Don't try bullshitting us, we've eaten these arguments a long time ago. Find me a single atheist that has ever said "life came from nothing!" or admit that you're just lying.

Quote:[Time] itself is evidence of that!

Wow, that's one hell of a non sequitur...

Quote:Most of the world choose to believe God created life....

And atheists understand that what you choose to believe means approximately dick, because the universe won't rearrange itself to meet your expectations of it.

Quote: some because there is no other answer available.

No, no: because they haven't taken the time to study and understand the real, demonstrable evidence for the actual answers, nor are they comfortable with the plain truth that occasionally, we don't know everything.

Quote:I look around and see the evidence EVERYWHERE! You stick your head up your.....eh.... in the sand and say I can't see anything!

Can you demonstrate your god? Not just say "look at all these things! Gee, I wonder who put these things here?!" But actually demonstrate that your specific god caused it to happen? No? I didn't think so.

Believe it or not, but the things you use to back up the presuppositions you already have mean very little.

Quote:Who cares? Most pedaphile preists are now atheists too! You can have em....Good riddens.

Oh my, that seems like one of those things you'd need to provide evidence for. Do you have any?

Quote:Are you acting stupid, or are you just dumb? Pick one please!

What else would you call god just waving his hands and creating stuff?

See, that's the thing: you guys are all too quick to rely on the staid godidit answer, but the truth is, that doesn't explain anything at all, now does it? Because I notice none of you are able to tell us how god created things, what the actual processes were. You're awfully quick to tell us how it couldn't have happened, but when it comes to actually providing details for your fairy stories, suddenly you get all quiet...

It's almost like you don't have any actual answers at all!

Rondee, in your argument, you are appealing to popularity and arguing from ignorance at the same time, these are both logical fallacies. It means that your argument means nothing until you stop arguing with fallacies.

ronedee Wrote:No theist says "we don't have an answer"...or "we don't know yet"! That's what agnostics and "certain" atheists say!

That's because theists* lack the intellectual integrity to admit when something cannot be known.

* I realize that not all theists are this way, but I worded it that way so my response fit ronedee's ignorant statement.

(July 23, 2013 at 7:51 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(July 23, 2013 at 12:26 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Just of the top of my head, I would say it's peer pressure and it feels like other people telling you to believe what they do when you didn't ask for their opinion.

And you're positive they were not trying to offer help and comfort, they may not have known k2490 was an atheist.

I don't have to be postive. When 20% of the population is not Christian, it's not polite or thoughtful to assume that everyone you meet is a Christian. It's like a white person assuming everyone they talk to on the internet is white. There's no excuse for pretending the bubble you live in surrounds everyone.

This reminds me of something a friend of mine was telling me about Sunday. Last week he was waiting in line at the Post Office, and the clerk and a customer started talking about being filled with the Holy Spirit, and soon a couple more people joined in and next thing you know the line isn't moving because everyone in front is talking about how great Jesus is. They started trying to draw other people in and one guy says to my friend, 'Don't you just love Jesus!?'. My friend says 'I don't have anything against him, but I'm an atheist'. The guy's jaw drops and he sputters and he goes to the little old lady waiting behind my friend and says 'You love Jesus though, don't you?'. She says 'Actually, I'm Jewish. If Jesus had to stand in this line he'd probably ask you to hurry it up if he had other errands to run like I do'.

(July 23, 2013 at 7:51 pm)Godschild Wrote: I do live in America. What I don't understand is why atheist can't accept that Christians can be brilliant scientist, if you were to sit down and talk to these men you would be amazed at their level of intelligence, the youth I taught was 22 when he received his PHD. in nuclear engineering.

I have yet to hear an atheist claim that a Christian can't be a brilliant scientist. This isn't the first time I've heard a Christian claim that atheists can't accept that Christians can be brilliant scientists, though.

(July 24, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I have yet to hear an atheist claim that a Christian can't be a brilliant scientist. This isn't the first time I've heard a Christian claim that atheists can't accept that Christians can be brilliant scientists, though.

Persecution complex at its finest.

Wikipedia's entry on the Philosophic Burden of Proof

Ronedee, GC, and any of you other morons take a good, hard look at what it means when you assert a claim.

Quote:The philosophical burden of proof or onus (probandi) is the obligation on a party in an epistemic dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position. This holds true for either arguing party.

If someone has a position, there is an obligation to provide sufficient evidence to support it. This does not only hold true to claims about a deity, but about anything in a public debate.

Quote:Holder of the Burden
When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. "If this responsibility or burden of proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed".[1] This burden does not necessarily require a mathematical or strictly logical proof, although many strong arguments do rise to this level (such as in logical syllogisms). Rather, the evidential standard required for a given claim is determined by convention or community standards, with regard to the context of the claim in question.

So if you tell us that we have to prove your claim, then you are committing a fallacy, proving that you are ignorant. Stop being ignorant!

(July 24, 2013 at 11:18 am)Esquilax Wrote: Yes, that's the problem: you assert knowledge, when what you really have are beliefs. If you can't show it, you don't know it, and you theists have never been able to show a single damn thing that is truthful about your god claims.

And you assert knowledge where there is NONE! What is the Truth?

Unless you have an answer as to how "life" came about, you can't disprove that God created it.

(July 24, 2013 at 11:18 am)Esquilax Wrote: And that is why you were told (and misunderstood) that you don't understand the burden of proof; you are the one making the claim, therefore you are the one required to prove it. The atheist saying "I don't believe you," requires no proof.

We just don't believe your unevidenced assertions.

And you are making the claim there is no God. Yet you don't have an answer as to how everything exists.

Let me ask you again.... How did everything come into existence? Unless you can give me a concise answer then you have no grounds for saying that God doesn't exist! Simple.

(July 24, 2013 at 11:18 am)Esquilax Wrote: Three things. One, yes, we are intellectually honest enough to say we don't know; we won't lie and claim our beliefs are true without evidence like you are. Two, stop with all this "want to know," crap. It's just a comforting lie you tell yourself to silence that little voice in your head that asks "what if what I'm presenting just isn't convincing?" Three, so what? The majority isn't always right. The majority once thought the earth was flat. Your god belief is just the next receding mass delusion.

I have "personal" evidence of God. So do most who love Him. That's the way He works!

I asked you in another thread (which you people just swap responses like musical chairs) you never answered:

What evidence do you need to fall to your knees and worship God?

(July 24, 2013 at 11:18 am)Esquilax Wrote: "Stuff exists, therefore god." Really. Fucking really?

Why not God? Because you can't see Him? He doesn't fit your idea of a God? You know better than a GOD?!

(July 24, 2013 at 11:18 am)Esquilax Wrote: Not necessarily. Our current universe began to exist, but there's always the possibility that it is eternal, and existed in some other state before the big bang. How do you intend to prove your assertion?

To our current universe, yes. Do you intend to prove your knowledge claim as to what lies beyond that?

Yep, and we have scientific evidence to prove that the underpinnings of life can uprise from purely natural means. See, that's... you know, evidence?

Brush-up on your astrophysics. There are many, many things uncertain in the universe, but the one thing that is certain is: "Everything in the universe [came into existence] from [infinite density]" (aka as small as it is now large)!!! Do you have any concept of that statement? The universe [was nothing]! And [came into existence]! You ask by what? I say by who.

(July 24, 2013 at 11:18 am)Esquilax Wrote: It's also a strawman. Don't try bullshitting us, we've eaten these arguments a long time ago. Find me a single atheist that has ever said "life came from nothing!" or admit that you're just lying.

Are you kidding me? You have more flavours of atheism around here than Baskin & Robbins!

(July 24, 2013 at 11:18 am)Esquilax Wrote: And atheists understand that what you choose to believe means approximately dick, because the universe won't rearrange itself to meet your expectations of it.

No. God arranged it so that those who believe would stand out from the fools that believe they know His will.

(July 24, 2013 at 11:18 am)Esquilax Wrote: No, no: because they haven't taken the time to study and understand the real, demonstrable evidence for the actual answers, nor are they comfortable with the plain truth that occasionally, we don't know everything.

Then how could you make a case against God if you don't know it all?

(July 24, 2013 at 11:18 am)Esquilax Wrote: Can you demonstrate your god? Not just say "look at all these things! Gee, I wonder who put these things here?!" But actually demonstrate that your specific god caused it to happen? No? I didn't think so.

Believe it or not, but the things you use to back up the presuppositions you already have mean very little.

As I have said over and over again. God is there for those would want Him. This life isn't about God serving man! He gave us life, and a choice. You choose NOT to believe. And until you actually look for Him, you won't find Him.

I could tell you miracle after miracle answered by God...but you still wouldn't believe me... or anyone for that matter.

(July 24, 2013 at 11:18 am)Esquilax Wrote: It's almost like you don't have any actual answers at all!

But then again... I could say the same for you.

What answers have you provided to me that God doesn't exist?

(July 24, 2013 at 5:23 pm)ronedee Wrote: What answers have you provided to me that God doesn't exist?

The fact that reality lacks verifiable evidence supporting a deity's existence indicates that stated deity does not exist.

(July 24, 2013 at 5:23 pm)ronedee Wrote: Let me ask you again.... How did everything come into existence? Unless you can give me a concise answer then you have no grounds for saying that God doesn't exist! Simple.

Physics then chemistry.

Seriously, ron, your repeated avoidance of the questions tells everyone all they need to know of the validity of your position.

(July 24, 2013 at 5:17 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: So if you tell us that we have to prove your claim, then you are committing a fallacy, proving that you are ignorant. Stop being ignorant!

IF there is NO GOD... Why are YOU here?

Aint it "dumb" to argue about something that doesn't exist?

Why do you need to come here and state the obvious? Why waste a minute of your valuable, short time on earth with me and the others disproving ghosts?

Don't you have better things to do?

At least I, and the others have a cause. From your "logical" pov... you and the others are the ignoramuses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God