(July 28, 2013 at 6:19 am)enrico Wrote: [quote=downbeatplumb]Brain function can be observed with MRI scanners. That is the physical manifestation of conciousness the firing of neurons can be seen and in some cases interpreted.

Quote:Sorry to say but consciousness can not have a physical manifestation for the simple reason that is totally outside the physical arena.

Says you without any evidence to support your assertion.
We can see the brain function, consciousness is the output of the brain functioning, in the same way that shit is the end process of the digestive system functioning. Accept it and move on.

Quote:What you can observe with MRI are as you say the brain functions which have little to do with consciousness.
You can see what is inside the computer hardware but you can not see what is inside the person who use the computer.

Yes we can because it is the same thing.

Quote:At the same time you can see what is inside the brain but you can not see what is inside the one who decide what to think or do with the help of the brain.

http://blip.tv/intel-videos/brain-imagin...ng-1978665

Quote:It has already been experienced by thousand of people who had a NDE experience that as soon as the body and the brain die the consciousness take over and you are still alive without body and mind so to understand how the brains works it does not mean that you can understand how the consciousness work as well.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Quote:neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy, with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia), and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots, or as in hyperventilation followed by Valsalva manoeuvre. Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor, and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned, as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD, psilocarpine, and mescaline. These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past

http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html

downbeatplumb Wrote:Says you without any evidence to support your assertion. We can see the brain function, consciousness is the output of the brain functioning, in the same way that shit is the end process of the digestive system functioning. Accept it and move on.

You are asserting that ......... consciousness is the output of the brain functioning...........
How did you work that out?
Did you read it in the wikipedia?
You still are stuck with the dogma that the brain is the one who decide what to think or do.
I can understand you in a way.
Before to start intuitional science i was thinking the same.
But as the saying goes............is never too late to wake up and grow up.


[quote=Enrico]What you can observe with MRI are as you say the brain functions which have little to do with consciousness.
You can see what is inside the computer hardware but you can not see what is inside the person who use the computer.

Quote:Yes we can because it is the same thing.

Sure, when you sit for long time inside a car you may come to the conclusion that you are the car.
That can be funny but at the same time it doesn't make any sens at all.

Quote:neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy, with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia), and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots, or as in hyperventilation followed by Valsalva manoeuvre. Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor, and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned, as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD, psilocarpine, and mescaline. These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past

http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html

Sure in certain circumstances you can leave you body as you mention above.
The differences however are very different from when you leave your body in a natural way that is when the NDE is not caused by drugs or other wanted causes.
In the natural case you are totally aware of what goes on and the experience is focus clear.
That does not happen when the experience is induced where everything is out of focus and is difficult to remember.
Just like the difference between making love and masturbating.

(July 28, 2013 at 6:19 am)enrico Wrote:

(July 27, 2013 at 1:31 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Rico, how do you know that these feelings that you are interpreting as "higher consciousness" are not simply the effect of neurochemicals upon the brain brought about by deep relaxation techniques? Especially since we know and can prove that such chemicals do exist and actually do affect the brain in such ways.

What seems to be happening is that you're trying to explain to us the rush you get from meditating and insisting it has to be something mystical, whereas we are basically agreeing that you have these fuzzy feelings and saying "yes, it's chemicals in your brain doing that." Put in another context, you're being mindblown by watching a magic trick and sticking your fingers in your ears to someone pointing out that it's not actually magic.

Drugs and chemical reaction affect the brain ok but those effect last as long as the drugs or chemical reaction last which put a time limit to the process.

This is simply false. We know that many drugs, if administered repeatedly, like meditation is repeatedly administered, can result in permanent changes to the brain which persist even in the absence of the drug. And the normal brain processes such as learning, memory, and development are themselves chemical processes, so to deny that chemical processes can result in durable changes to the brain is simply absurd and provably false.

I'm going to be charitable here and point out that nobody is doubting that you have had profound experiences; what they doubt is that you know for certain that they are indications of the metaphysical, ontological and physical effects that you claim they are. And seeing that these claims aren't even original to you, but borrowed from Hindu traditions (i.e. repeated as dogma), it doesn't appear that you've either discovered or demonstrated the truth of karma or reincarnation, you're simply repeating what you've been told, and explaining your own experience in light of the things you have been told.

A profound experience in and of itself is evidence of nothing, as all religious traditions lay claim to such profound experiences as evidence of their religious beliefs. Either they are evidence, and all conflicting religions are true, or they simply aren't evidence.

(July 28, 2013 at 8:02 am)enrico Wrote: Human being judgement is limited to what they perceive with their senses and according their culture so they can not have a proper judgment in many instances.
Anyone doing an action create a reaction in the good or in the bad so it is this system that prevail at the end.

If your judgement is likewise human judgement, from what vantage point do you pretend to prescribe the limits of human judgement? Wouldn't your idea of the limits of human judgement be limited, first and foremost, by your own experience, education and capacities? If you answer it is by way of your consciousness, how do you know your grip on consciousness is in any way superior to anyone else here? No one in their right mind is going to accept your absurd pronouncements.

---

(July 28, 2013 at 12:35 pm)apophenia Wrote: ..seeing that these claims aren't even original to you, but borrowed from Hindu traditions (i.e. repeated as dogma), it doesn't appear that you've either discovered or demonstrated the truth of karma or reincarnation, you're simply repeating what you've been told, and explaining your own experience in light of the things you have been told.

^ This.

apophenia Wrote:We know that many drugs, if administered repeatedly, like meditation is repeatedly administered, can result in permanent changes to the brain which persist even in the absence of the drug. And the normal brain processes such as learning, memory, and development are themselves chemical processes, so to deny that chemical processes can result in durable changes to the brain is simply absurd and provably false.

First of all i wouldn't mix drugs effect with meditation.
It would be like mixing masturbation with making love.
Since you start with the wrong foot everything that follow is also incorrect.
While masturbation produce long term problem making love does not.
Drugs effect affect the brains ok and in a bad way but meditation goes well over the brain.
Meditation goes right into the consciousness but what would you know about it considering that you never practice the REAL yoga.

Quote:I'm going to be charitable here and point out that nobody is doubting that you have had profound experiences; what they doubt is that you know for certain that they are indications of the metaphysical, ontological and physical effects that you claim they are. And seeing that these claims aren't even original to you, but borrowed from Hindu traditions (i.e. repeated as dogma), it doesn't appear that you've either discovered or demonstrated the truth of karma or reincarnation, you're simply repeating what you've been told, and explaining your own experience in light of the things you have been told.

Thanks for your charity but put in this way. You want to learn something.
The teacher will say to you............if you follow my teaching you will get here or there.
You follow his-her teaching and you realize that you really get here or there so why shouldn't you allow to repeating what your teacher said to you?

Quote:A profound experience in and of itself is evidence of nothing, as all religious traditions lay claim to such profound experiences as evidence of their religious beliefs. Either they are evidence, and all conflicting religions are true, or they simply aren't evidence.

Again you are making a terrible confusion.
Experience can be something that was lived in the past and may be gone by now on the other hand a permanent state of bliss and peace of mind is something that stay with you.
Religions have very little to do with spirituality so they will find very very difficult to come up with permanent state of peace of mind as a spiritualist is able to come up with.
While an experience can prove very little a permanent state of internal peace can, but again what can you understand when you never practice the REAL yoga.


Oh, by the way what's wrong with you?
This time you did not come up with your usual verbal bashing?
Did you find some peace?

---

whateverist Wrote:If your judgement is likewise human judgement, from what vantage point do you pretend to prescribe the limits of human judgement? Wouldn't your idea of the limits of human judgement be limited, first and foremost, by your own experience, education and capacities? If you answer it is by way of your consciousness, how do you know your grip on consciousness is in any way superior to anyone else here? No one in their right mind is going to accept your absurd pronouncements.

Did i ever said that my consciousness judgement power is superior to someone who is not into consciousness?
Of course i never said that.
I do not know what is my degree of consciousness power so i would not come up with pretending that i am a good judge.
What i can say is that anyone who has a high consciousness power is much more able to have a higher judgement power then anyone who is not into consciousness.
Why is that so?
Consciousness is like an iceberg.
The small tip at the top is the rational mind or what most of the people can perceive but the part under the water is the gift as Einstein put it.
So by getting the gift on the surface you are able to come up with a lot more knowledge.

(July 29, 2013 at 10:31 am)enrico Wrote: The small tip at the top is the rational mind or what most of the people can perceive but the part under the water is the gift as Einstein put it.
So by getting the gift on the surface you are able to come up with a lot more knowledge.

This gets at the difference between the aims of spirituality and of integration. The idea that you drag the unconscious mind to the surface where you can plunder it with your conscious mind is the essence of spirituality. The goal of spirituality is for the conscious mind -Einstein's faithful servant- to take over the gift. Integration brings the two together but while the conscious mind becomes more and more in tune with the unconscious, it never takes over. The conscious mind remains the servant and in that way the totality of the self flourishes.

I tend to see spirituality as a kind of escapism from the actuality of the unconscious. The unconscious, like the world, is what it is. It will never bend to your will. Spirituality seeks the high places where one can see far. But life is in the valleys and swamps. I've done some spiritual questing and taken in some nice views but I choose to abide in the lowlands. The heights are ultimately sterile and devoid of life. It is better to find your place in the swamp where you are a part of something bigger and have lots of company.

(July 28, 2013 at 8:23 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(July 28, 2013 at 6:19 am)enrico Wrote:

downbeatplumb Wrote:Brain function can be observed with MRI scanners. That is the physical manifestation of conciousness the firing of neurons can be seen and in some cases interpreted.

Quote:Sorry to say but consciousness can not have a physical manifestation for the simple reason that is totally outside the physical arena.

Says you without any evidence to support your assertion.
We can see the brain function, consciousness is the output of the brain functioning, in the same way that shit is the end process of the digestive system functioning. Accept it and move on.

Quote:What you can observe with MRI are as you say the brain functions which have little to do with consciousness.
You can see what is inside the computer hardware but you can not see what is inside the person who use the computer.

Yes we can because it is the same thing.

Quote:At the same time you can see what is inside the brain but you can not see what is inside the one who decide what to think or do with the help of the brain.

http://blip.tv/intel-videos/brain-imagin...ng-1978665

Quote:It has already been experienced by thousand of people who had a NDE experience that as soon as the body and the brain die the consciousness take over and you are still alive without body and mind so to understand how the brains works it does not mean that you can understand how the consciousness work as well.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Quote:neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy, with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia), and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots, or as in hyperventilation followed by Valsalva manoeuvre. Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor, and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned, as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD, psilocarpine, and mescaline. These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past

http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html

One more close quote and this post would be visible.

(July 29, 2013 at 10:31 am)enrico Wrote: While masturbation produce long term problem making love does not.

Is that so? Well, to coin a phrase, rico old parsnip: "Since you start with the wrong foot everything that follow is also incorrect."

To coin another one: "Citation needed." And it better be a bloody good one.

(July 29, 2013 at 10:31 am)enrico Wrote: Did i ever said that my consciousness judgement power is superior to someone who is not into consciousness?
Of course i never said that.
...
What i can say is that anyone who has a high consciousness power is much more able to have a higher judgement power then anyone who is not into consciousness.

Ummm, you basically just said that someone with a higher consciousness does have superior judgement power to someone without a higher consciousness.

(July 29, 2013 at 10:31 am)enrico Wrote:

apophenia Wrote:We know that many drugs, if administered repeatedly, like meditation is repeatedly administered, can result in permanent changes to the brain which persist even in the absence of the drug. And the normal brain processes such as learning, memory, and development are themselves chemical processes, so to deny that chemical processes can result in durable changes to the brain is simply absurd and provably false.

First of all i wouldn't mix drugs effect with meditation.
It would be like mixing masturbation with making love.
Since you start with the wrong foot everything that follow is also incorrect.
While masturbation produce long term problem making love does not.
Drugs effect affect the brains ok and in a bad way but meditation goes well over the brain.
Meditation goes right into the consciousness but what would you know about it considering that you never practice the REAL yoga.

I'm beginning to wonder why so many of your replies to me make reference to masturbation. Do you have something on your mind, Enrico?

Do you know what 'ignoratio elenchi' is? It's a fallacy, and it occurs when you give an answer that doesn't address the point in question. Allow me to refresh your "superior" memory.

Stimbo asked you, "Rico, how do you know that these feelings that you are interpreting as 'higher consciousness' are not simply the effect of neurochemicals upon the brain brought about by deep relaxation techniques?"

And your response was that chemicals do not cause durable changes to a person's mind. This was false. And none of the blather above addresses Stimbo's original question. That's ignoratio elenchi.

Obviously, not content with following a false claim with a fallacious reply, you went for the hat trick by admitting that meditation does affect the brain just as drugs affect the brain. Are you trying to look stupid on purpose, or is this what 40 years of your 'tantric' yoga has done to your mind?

If you are this incompetent at the grosser aspects of consciousness — simple reasoning — why would anyone trust that you are competent with regard to other, subtler aspects of consciousness? And knowing that Ananda Marga have a history of unethical and predatory practices, and you apparently align yourself with them and their founder, I have every reason to suspect that you, too, are predatory and unethical. You've already been caught lying, and then lied about your lying. I don't know if you're simply a brainless idiot who is yet another victim of this cheap knock-off copy of Hinduism, a predator looking to make converts through dishonesty and pretense, or just a desperate person looking for attention. What I do know is that you have been repeatedly asked to give us some reason to believe you, and quite the contrary, you've given us countless reasons not to. At worst, you're malevolent. At best, you're an incompetent boob. Fortunately for you, even fools have a role to play, and you're bringing smiles to the faces of members here by giving them something to laugh at.