(July 27, 2013 at 1:57 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: We've advanced more under capitalism in the last few decades than in the entirety of human history. It has its flaws, sure, but its by far the best system for statecraft currently known.

By "advanced," you are referring to technology. I don't think our improved technology has benefitted the world much, including almost all the species who have to put up with us.

(July 27, 2013 at 6:53 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(July 27, 2013 at 1:57 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: We've advanced more under capitalism in the last few decades than in the entirety of human history. It has its flaws, sure, but its by far the best system for statecraft currently known.

By "advanced," you are referring to technology. I don't think our improved technology has benefitted the world much, including almost all the species who have to put up with us.

Entirely subjective. If we take humanity as simply another facet of the universe, then really, it's all relative.

But talking exclusively in political paradigms and the evolution of a fluid societal structure, capitalism is the best we've had and got to this date. After all, without 'technology', I'd be dead.

(July 27, 2013 at 6:53 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(July 27, 2013 at 1:57 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: We've advanced more under capitalism in the last few decades than in the entirety of human history. It has its flaws, sure, but its by far the best system for statecraft currently known.

By "advanced," you are referring to technology. I don't think our improved technology has benefitted the world much, including almost all the species who have to put up with us.

And technology has benefited our lives in numerous way. Like Fidel said it has it's flaws but ultimately it has done far more good than bad. Advances in medicine are just one example how capitalism has helped. I am by no means saying that advances in medicine are only available in capitalist countries, but it is hard to argue that a large portion of those advances don't.

To the OP though, pure capitalism is bad. If you want an example of pure capitalism at work then all you have to do is look at the illegal drug trade. Or really any illegal, underground, or black market trade. Disputes in business in these pure capitalist markets are typically resolved by violence and death.

(July 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)plaincents822 Wrote: To the OP though, pure capitalism is bad. If you want an example of pure capitalism at work then all you have to do is look at the illegal drug trade. Or really any illegal, underground, or black market trade. Disputes in business in these pure capitalist markets are typically resolved by violence and death.

Again, why would the illegal drug trade be an example of pure capitalism? What makes you think that disputes in a pure capitalist market would be resolved with violence and death? This looks very much like a strawman.

(July 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)plaincents822 Wrote:

(July 27, 2013 at 6:53 pm)bennyboy Wrote: By "advanced," you are referring to technology. I don't think our improved technology has benefitted the world much, including almost all the species who have to put up with us.

And technology has benefited our lives in numerous way. Like Fidel said it has it's flaws but ultimately it has done far more good than bad. Advances in medicine are just one example how capitalism has helped. I am by no means saying that advances in medicine are only available in capitalist countries, but it is hard to argue that a large portion of those advances don't.

To the OP though, pure capitalism is bad. If you want an example of pure capitalism at work then all you have to do is look at the illegal drug trade. Or really any illegal, underground, or black market trade. Disputes in business in these pure capitalist markets are typically resolved by violence and death.

When I said world, I meant world-- i.e. as opposed to the 7 billion people unnecessarily occupying it. It is BECAUSE modern medicine and food growing techniques, along with advanced distribution methods, are so effective that there can be that many people.

However, I kind of feel like there are so many of us that we are dividing up the quality-of-life pie among too many. For example, in the apartments just on my block (I'm in Korea), there are probably about 10,000 people, all of whom either produce stuff we don't need, or who sustain the people who produce stuff we don't need. And after all of that, we're all doing a dance with lung cancer, and Bambi is road kill.

If I look across the street, I see another apartment complex, with another 10,000 people. They live 100 meters away from me, and I'll never even say hi to any of them. They could all just disappear in an alien abduction, and it would be like it never happened.

Except that a couple acres of rainforest would still be standing.

(July 26, 2013 at 9:51 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

No, capitalism states the nastiest men will win, and you wouldn't dare think things could be better for you otherwise.

Communism states the nastiest men will win, and you would be shot if you dare think they were nasty.

Fascism states the nastiest men will win, and if you prostrate yourself, we'll permit you to pretend you too are one of the nasty. But of course you won't win.

(July 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)plaincents822 Wrote: And technology has benefited our lives in numerous way. Like Fidel said it has it's flaws but ultimately it has done far more good than bad. Advances in medicine are just one example how capitalism has helped. I am by no means saying that advances in medicine are only available in capitalist countries, but it is hard to argue that a large portion of those advances don't.

Fidels 'reasoning' goes a little something like this.

Capitalism has flaws because people are imperfect and are greedy, steal, make mistakes.

But under MY system, it wont have flaws.

-A reasonable man would quickly ask: "But if Capitalism is wrong because humans are imperfect, then why are we giving a group of humans near infinite power to rule over us in a monopoly?"

Then an unreasonable man would take that guy to the gulag.

(July 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)plaincents822 Wrote: To the OP though, pure capitalism is bad. If you want an example of pure capitalism at work then all you have to do is look at the illegal drug trade. Or really any illegal, underground, or black market trade. Disputes in business in these pure capitalist markets are typically resolved by violence and death.

I'm sorry, but you do realise organised crime and drug dealers only exist because those drugs are made illegal by the government? Without the government, none of these drug wars, etc would even exist.

Because when an industry is made illegal by the government, very few people want to get involved with it because of the risks involved- which naturally creates a void in demand which means higher margins. And if you are some kid growing up in a ghetto/welfare estate (which is caused by the government again), making a few hundred dollars in a day selling drugs is quite appealing to those that have nothing to lose. That's why you get so many outlandish and violent people in drug trade, rather than Joe Shmo businessmen.

Otherwise it would be an Amsterdam coffee shop, rather than some creepy guy in the back of an alley.

But I'm sure you know all this already.

(July 29, 2013 at 5:53 pm)Koolay Wrote: Fidels 'reasoning' goes a little something like this.

Capitalism has flaws because people are imperfect and are greedy, steal, make mistakes.

But under MY system, it wont have flaws.

Well that's comforting. "My hypothetical system would be perfect because I'd make sure it was perfect." Details are forthcoming, I'm sure.

BTW, we're not the only species that barters for services.

Quote:We've advanced more under capitalism in the last few decades than in the entirety of human history.

The United States made its greatest advances when capitalism was controlled by government regulation on one hand and labor unions on the other.

Then...the pigs got greedy. What we have now is hardly an "advance." Unless you think going down the shitter is "advancement."

Koolay displays a fervent, devout faith in the goodness of the invisible hand of the market. One might even say he seems to think it is a god with our best interests at heart.