(July 31, 2013 at 5:46 am)StuW Wrote:

Quote:This something we know from logic since the universe did not and cannot create itself.

Where are you getting this from? Particles are created out of nothing all the time through quantum fluctuation, it's a basic principle of quantum mechanics, is the origin of Hawking radiation and is why there is no such thing as a vacuum! and before you say "Prove it", they produce measurable effects, such as the Lamb shift and the Casimir-Polder force.

Quantum fluctuations have not been observed where it really matters--outside of a space-time universe. Scientists have only ever observed fluctuations within space, and have yet to demonstrate how fluctuations create space, much less atoms. And how can any process occur without time?

Scientists use a trick of words when describing Quantum effects. They say that the universe began when time and space fluctuated. But that leaves the question: what could cause time and space to fluctuate before time and space exist?

Argument from ignorance.

(July 31, 2013 at 1:54 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Scientists use a trick of words when describing Quantum effects.

Oh great, another Xian who thinks the Scientists are out to get him.

(July 31, 2013 at 2:16 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote:

(July 31, 2013 at 1:54 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Scientists use a trick of words when describing Quantum effects.

Oh great, another Xian who thinks the Scientists are out to get him.

Scientists do their best to explain a universe without a catalyst. They are still looking for a catalyst, it just can't be God. It's their job to find material solutions to natural processes. And it's our job to understand that. Once scientists try to explain something beyond/before the natural world, they need not be trusted--they are by definition outside of their field of expertise.

(July 31, 2013 at 2:07 pm)oukoida Wrote: Argument from ignorance.

Supreme ignorance!

But scientists have never tried to explain anything beyond or before the natural world - quantum fluctuations being the very basis of what we see, not something otherworldly.
Even if they were not accountable for what they said, any belief in anything supernatural would still remain unproven and unjustified.

(July 31, 2013 at 2:16 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote:

(July 31, 2013 at 1:54 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Scientists use a trick of words when describing Quantum effects.

Oh great, another Xian who thinks the Scientists are out to get him.

(July 31, 2013 at 2:21 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(July 31, 2013 at 2:16 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Oh great, another Xian who thinks the Scientists are out to get him.

Scientists do their best to explain a universe without a catalyst. They are still looking for a catalyst, it just can't be God. It's their job to find material solutions to natural processes. And it's our job to understand that. Once scientists try to explain something beyond/before the natural world, they need not be trusted--they are by definition outside of their field of expertise.

It's my job to wha???

(July 31, 2013 at 2:21 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(July 31, 2013 at 2:16 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Oh great, another Xian who thinks the Scientists are out to get him.

Scientists do their best to explain a universe without a catalyst. They are still looking for a catalyst, it just can't be God. It's their job to find material solutions to natural processes. And it's our job to understand that. Once scientists try to explain something beyond/before the natural world, they need not be trusted--they are by definition outside of their field of expertise.

And anyone who says the any such catalyst must be Supernatural should never be trusted.

Remember Crop Circles? People were convinced that aliens did it. Well, it made sense, seeing as it was something unexplained at the time, so something beyond our understanding had to be the case, such as the superior abilities of extraterrestrials. The thing these nutjobs messed up on is that they assumed aliens did it, so they took that as fact instead of simple supposition. Then, when we proved how exactly the pranksters made the circles happen, the alien theory was almost completely dropped.

Whenever a cosmological phenomenon happened in the past, people speculated that godidit. Everytime we advance enough to fully investigate these claims, it turns out that god did not do it. As this is the pattern for everything so far in science, scientists have a lot going for them when they set out to investigate the causes of the Universe or its age without referencing the Bible or God claims first.

(July 31, 2013 at 2:21 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(July 31, 2013 at 2:16 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Oh great, another Xian who thinks the Scientists are out to get him.

Scientists do their best to explain a universe without a catalyst. They are still looking for a catalyst, it just can't be God. It's their job to find material solutions to natural processes. And it's our job to understand that. Once scientists try to explain something beyond/before the natural world, they need not be trusted--they are by definition outside of their field of expertise.

Meanwhile - leaving aside the world of fairy tale horseshit for a while, Science is still working.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...235542.htm

Quote:"Our work on alkaline hot springs on the ocean floor makes what we believe is the most plausible case for the origin of the life's building blocks and its energy supply," Russell said. "Our hypothesis is testable, has the right assortment of ingredients and obeys the laws of thermodynamics."

IOW, everything the fucking bible is not!