I repeat: what evidence would satisfy you?

(If you don't like it that I'm being evasive on this, now perhaps you appreciate what it's like for our position. The only real difference is I can say you won't understand whatever evidence I or others might present because you don't want to be convinced or even something to consider; you're just fishing for the opportunity to preach. Sorry, but I'm fireproof and I don't play that game. I could be wrong in that opinion, of course, in which case you can demonstrate that by presenting what I asked for - namely some evidence that your or any god actually does exist. Failure to do so will be taken as conceding the point. Tu quoque-style accusations will be met with the response that I'm being deliberately ironic; what's your excuse?)

(August 5, 2013 at 1:33 am)Minimalist Wrote: You mean allah needed a re-write? Doesn't seem very god-like, does it?

Au contrare. Gods get rewrites all the time. Look how Yahweh evolved from Genesis to Revelation. Tell me that's the same god.

(August 3, 2013 at 5:12 am)Stimbo Wrote: I wanna get in on the necro dogpile!

(August 3, 2013 at 1:16 am)TruthSeeker89 Wrote: but then[/font] is there any evidence that god does not exist?[font=Times New Roman]

Yes.

Your turn.

Oh what the hell..

I'm willing to concede I have no evidence for the non-existence of god. What would even count as evidence that the non-existent does not exist? Of course positive belief tends to work the other way, you would have reasons. That of course assumes it is anything you've really thought about. More likely you are just carrying on a set of cultural beliefs which you inherited from your family. Nothing wrong with that but then all this talk of reasons for belief is pretty silly.

There's so many crap arguments against the quran, I hate seeing crap arguments against the quran more than I hate seeing the crap arguments for the quran being a work of god.

Maybe I'll just blitz this thread with every single idea of mine that I can think of, about why I'm not a muslim when I have the time.

Not like anyone will read it but at least it'll be therapeutic for me.

(September 6, 2013 at 10:46 am)paulpablo Wrote: There's so many crap arguments against the quran, I hate seeing crap arguments against the quran more than I hate seeing the crap arguments for the quran being a work of god.

Maybe I'll just blitz this thread with every single idea of mine that I can think of, about why I'm not a muslim when I have the time.

Not like anyone will read it but at least it'll be therapeutic for me.

I have a question if Allah is omniscient and omnipotent why the next ayaat 2:106 and 16:101 does exist ?

Before I even start the beginning of the argument I'd like the begin with the arguments against the quran which I just find idiotic which won't be featured in my arguments.

Muhammad was a pedo so Islam is wrong.--- Not all muslims agree muhammad slept with a 9 year old, the ones that do will just tell you sleeping with a 9 year old is fine anyway, I disagree with this but I don't claim to know for any certainty what is right or wrong for the entire world I just know what I think the laws should be, this is really no argument against god in any case.

Terrorists are bad so all of Islam is bad.---- I do think that terrorism is something that certainly crops up among a lot of muslims, but it crops a lot within most groups of organized people. Some of my argument will probably include things about terrorism but it isn't a clear argument against the quran or gods existence.

I know some muslims and they beat their wives so Islam is wrong.--- Again this isn't all Muslims so it's pointless to pick on a few individuals.

I heard of a hadith that said Muhammad actually could read and therefore wasn't illiterate--- I don't see any reason to put 100 percent trust in any of the so called authentic hadiths or unauthentic it doesn't matter either way to me.

BEGINNING

Ok to begin with before I even touch the topic of what I think of the quran itself or muslims or islam the best first question to ask is why should the cult of muhammad be taken any more seriously than any other cult ? As in why even bother to open a quran, start a debate. Why should anyone even consider that this might not be the same as every single other cult that claims to have a prophet, miracles, the message of god and so on?


Should I begin to study the quran because the religion of Islam has a lot of followers and converts so there must be something to it?

No.
Not all muslims convert to the same type of Islam, there's the nation of Islam, sunni islam, shia islam, quranist muslims and others I think. In fact I'd go as far to say as it's very difficult to find two muslims who both believe the quran is telling them the exact same thing.
There's plenty of people who believe in the church of mormon, and the christian bible it doesn't make it any more real.


Should I study the quran because the quran gives scientific knowledge which was undiscovered at the time muhammad recited the quran?

I haven't read all the quran and I doubt I have heard all the claims of scientific miracles within the quran yet but I've heard a lot and I haven't been convinced by a single one yet.
They range from the absurd ones I've heard such as "The quran predicted radar technology" To ones that admittedly seemed plausible at first but after more thought and research were debunked.

Besides think about it, I go to heaven and tell god I didn't believe in the cult of muhammad because I thought it was like every other cult and can you imagine him saying to me
"If you were skeptical then you should have just researched the quran, learned arabic, then researched about the oceans and how the part of the quran says there's a barrier between salt water and fresh water, and then realized its true"


Should I study the quran because the people, cultures, countries and followers of the religion of Islam and of the quran are exemplary people, more educated, more peaceful, healthier, longer lifespans and with higher standards of technology?

No.
No explanation with this one really needed I think but just a simple no.


Should I bother to open and read a quran because the quran hasn't been changed since it was first written unlike the bible and other scripture.

No.
I don't know for sure if this is true, it's been debated by people much more knowledgeable about it than me.
When I was in college my friend wrote in ink in big block capital letters on a brick in a wall behind the college "FAT WHORE OF SATAN"
That was over ten years ago and it's still there, a lot of the papers we wrote our notes on is probably long gone by now yet this "FAT WHORE OF SATAN" is still there, unchanged, doesn't make it any more true or believable.
Things being unchanged don't impress me, I don't understand the big deal about this.


This is pretty much the end of the beginning focusing on the question why should anyone even begin to take any of the claims seriously over any other cult.
The next part will be about what I have gathered after I have bothered to open the quran out of interest, some objections I have to it being the word of the god. Or should I say the word of god passed through an angel, recited to muhammad, who recited it to other people who could write.
And why it seems to me to look like a man made cult.

(September 6, 2013 at 5:07 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Should I begin to study the quran because the religion of Islam has a lot of followers and converts so there must be something to it?

No.
Not all muslims convert to the same type of Islam, there's the nation of Islam, sunni islam, shia islam, quranist muslims and others I think. In fact I'd go as far to say as it's very difficult to find two muslims who both believe the quran is telling them the exact same thing.
There's plenty of people who believe in the church of mormon, and the christian bible it doesn't make it any more real.

(bolding mine)

This is somewhat true, in any case, true enough to make the Qur'an not worth studying for someone who is trying to understand the belief instead of finding allah. IMHO. I'm curious as to your opinion on this? Islam had a big influence on my life, but I never bothered reading the Qur'an even after I got somewhat interested in the religion, I just sometimes listen to what muslims say they believe, and if my muslim friends bring it up, I'll encourage them to explain their beliefs to me. I think this is a better way than actually studying the Qur'an because all of them interpret it so differently. I briefly considered studying it but then thought it'd be a waste of time because I bet if I quote it and a muslim disagree they'll just say I'm interpreting it wrongly and I don't know arabic. I'm not interested in studying Arabic just to have a debate.

I don't know much about the Koran and what it says. I reject it on the same basis that I reject all religions, hat being that the concept of a god of any sort is silly and in the Venn diagram of life they are all in the circle I have labelled "Superstition".

I don't have to know the details of every religion to reject them, just the mention of a god or other similar being in their tracts (Xenu for the scientologists) makes me go "let me stop you there".

1st reason why I think Islam is a man made cult.

The quran says warners were sent to every nation in the world, but like every single other cult in the world it has been spread by people.
There's so many different levels on why to me this makes Islam appear to be a cult.
This isn't proof that Islam is a cult, but Islam has spread in exactly the way you would expect a man made cult to.

Like every single other cult in the world it has been spread by people. No cult has ever encountered another cult that I'm aware of in the history of the world and said

" Oh so god came and spoke to you too and gave you the exact same message and exact rules, I guess we can live in peace."

It probably has happened before two religions living in total peace, but what I mean is even the religions living in peace beside each other must notice differences in religious rules and commandments whatever you want to call them.
No one has ever encountered a nation with their own version of the quran independent of the one made by muhammad, no one has even encountered tribes who were warned about alcohol and pork before coming into contact with alcohol and pork and who also show modesty with clothing and pray facing, none of them were told about mecca or facing it while praying.
If there were other warners to other nations these warners obviously forgot to include a LOT of the things muslims usually find very very important.

Like I said previously it's very difficult to find 2 muslims with the same view on what the quran is telling them because it is vague and written in one language, not a universal book everyone can easily accessibly read at all.

To me a book that causes peace among people, prosperity and uses clear language and spreads a very clear message among every single on of its readers that was created within the last decade is much more impressive than a book that hasn't been changed for 1500 years or so yet is so vague everyone of its readers and followers comes away with a different interpretation and the followers kill each other and other people and anyone who insults the book or the so called prophet.

I can't prove that god didn't spread his message in a way that exactly conforms to how a cult would spread if it were man made though.

All the first two posts try to show is that there's no reason to actually begin to take the quran seriously and the message of Islam has been spread exactly the way every other cult has spread.