(September 17, 2013 at 10:11 am)John V Wrote: Yes, most hold that those that die below the age of accountability go to heaven. That's hardly murder.

So if I killed you, being that I assume you're quite sure you're saved and heading to heaven, I shouldn't be charged with murder? Is your definition of those who can be murdered really just "people who will go to hell?"

The WLC defense, the adults were going to end up in hell anyway so they just received their justice quicker than they otherwise would have done and the children would end up in heaven rather than hell had the lived to be adults so were done a favor. The only people we ought to feel sorry for being the Hebrews ordered to carry out the massacres as this would be psychologically damaging for them.

(September 17, 2013 at 10:54 am)Esquilax Wrote: So if I killed you, being that I assume you're quite sure you're saved and heading to heaven, I shouldn't be charged with murder?

Of course you should be charged with murder. You didn't create me, and you don't determine where I go. IMO this reasoning is why the doctrine can be derived from Scripture, but isn't stated explicitly.

Quote:Is your definition of those who can be murdered really just "people who will go to hell?"

Of course not.

Does your definition of murder only apply to your own species?

(September 17, 2013 at 11:02 am)John V Wrote: Of course you should be charged with murder. You didn't create me, and you don't determine where I go. IMO this reasoning is why the doctrine can be derived from Scripture, but isn't stated explicitly.

God didn't create you either, dude. Your parents did. And either this was an act of creation partaken by their own free will, or your god had them do it and he gets the credit by violating their free will. But it can't be both.

And that's ignoring the immorality of your "I made you, I can break you," attitude.

Quote:Of course not.

Does your definition of murder only apply to your own species?

Yes, unless you can present to me another life form with the same degree of mental capacity as humans.

Notably though, we do have laws against cruelty to other species; killing a dog or some other animal for no reason has sanctions. Really, the only variety of killing that is allowed on animals is for food- a necessity given our biological makeup and the way the ecosystem works- for safety or out of mercy. Well, that and animal testing, but I'm allowed to prize my own species and its safety, here. You got a problem with it, take it up with your god, who designed the system in the first place, according to you.

And don't talk to me about the fur trade, because there's a reason I don't wear fur or leather, okay?

(September 17, 2013 at 10:11 am)John V Wrote: And how do you know that those people never sinned?

You think every first-born child in Egypt was over the age of accountability?

(September 17, 2013 at 10:11 am)John V Wrote: Yes, most hold that those that die below the age of accountability go to heaven. That's hardly murder.

Best Christian argument in favor of abortion I've ever heard.

(September 17, 2013 at 10:11 am)John V Wrote: If omniscience means that all of our thoughts and actions are predetermined, then we are not autonomous beings and we have no rights. This is a self-defeating argument. Even if you win the battle, you lose the war.

If we don't have free will and still have suffering, you've thrown away the main Christian argument in justification of the Problem of Evil. If we don't have free will, then our suffering is pointless, heaven and hell are pointless, and God is merely a powerful child playing with an anthill.

(September 17, 2013 at 11:12 am)Esquilax Wrote: Yes, unless you can present to me another life form with the same degree of mental capacity as humans.

Humans don't have the mental capacity as god. Therefore, it's not murder when god kills.

Quote:Notably though, we do have laws against cruelty to other species; killing a dog or some other animal for no reason has sanctions. Really, the only variety of killing that is allowed on animals is for food- a necessity given our biological makeup and the way the ecosystem works- for safety or out of mercy. Well, that and animal testing, but I'm allowed to prize my own species and its safety, here. You got a problem with it, take it up with your god, who designed the system in the first place, according to you.

We protect certain species which we take a liking to. Others, such as ants, are not used for food, in my area don't bite or sting or carry disease, yet I'm free to kill them at will, with poisons which seem to cause suffering before death. Judging by the pest control aisle at the local store, this is a pretty common practice.

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(September 17, 2013 at 11:22 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: You think every first-born child in Egypt was over the age of accountability?

No. Those under went to heaven, as already noted. Those above had sin of their own.

Quote:Best Christian argument in favor of abortion I've ever heard.

As noted in another post, there's a reason that the doctrine isn't explicitly stated.

Quote:If we don't have free will and still have suffering, you've thrown away the main Christian argument in justification of the Problem of Evil. If we don't have free will, then our suffering is pointless, heaven and hell are pointless, and God is merely a powerful child playing with an anthill.

You don't seem to understand: if we don't have free will, then it's nonsensical to say we're suffering, or even to call us "we." A better analogy then an anthill would be a really complex novel.

Quote:And how do you know that those people never sinned?

Oh, fuck off you sanctimonious twat. All you xtian fuckheads say you are sinners, too. Maybe we should kill you. Seems fair, eh?

(September 17, 2013 at 12:08 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Oh, fuck off you sanctimonious twat. All you xtian fuckheads say you are sinners, too. Maybe we should kill you. Seems fair, eh?

Death threats. Nice. I reported the post, but instead of censure you'll probably win an award.

(September 17, 2013 at 11:52 am)John V Wrote: Humans don't have the mental capacity as god. Therefore, it's not murder when god kills.

So a posited superior intelligence gets a free pass? Why is it only his minions who say this, i wonder.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, i say.

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(September 17, 2013 at 12:17 pm)John V Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 12:08 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Oh, fuck off you sanctimonious twat. All you xtian fuckheads say you are sinners, too. Maybe we should kill you. Seems fair, eh?

Death threats. Nice. I reported the post, but instead of censure you'll probably win an award.

I guess you mean murder threat? And no, it wasn't.

Hardily anyone has the mental capacity of Stephen Hawkings but that doesn't give him free license to attach machine guns and rocket launchers to his chair and blow away whoever he wills.