(September 26, 2013 at 5:56 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Children at a young age can be skeptical of a lot of things.

You are completely wrong here. Children at a young age are not skeptical at all. Thats why they believe in Santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy. Seriously have you ever spoken to a little kid? The believe anything you tell them.

It seems we have a language barrier here. Vinny, I your own words, what does it mean for something to be rational or irrational?

(September 26, 2013 at 8:00 pm)Rationalman Wrote:

(September 26, 2013 at 5:56 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Children at a young age can be skeptical of a lot of things.

You are completely wrong here. Children at a young age are not skeptical at all. Thats why they believe in Santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy. Seriously have you ever spoken to a little kid? The believe anything you tell them.

I hope you're kidding. Children at a young age are not skeptical at all? Can you think about that statement for a second and tell me how you can make such a sweeping, total universal claim? Ugh.

I mean, we could take your same argument and make it show atheism to be nonsensical.

a) Kids believe all kinds of nonsense.
b) Most atheists became atheists when they were kids
Therefore, most atheists became atheists by believing nonsense.

Too sweeping?

(September 26, 2013 at 7:05 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: All the points I raise suggest atheism is more about irrationality and/or emotion than reason.

What, because they call you names? Have you ever considered that they just don't like you? and that it has nothing to do with their atheism?

(September 26, 2013 at 7:05 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Cumulatively, all these points just raise the probabilities higher and higher. Combined with the lack of any good arguments or scientific evidence in support of atheism, one can conclude with a high degree of confidence that most atheism is irrational.

Atheism doesn't need any arguments, seriously? Do you understand the burden of proof? And you are just lying when you say there is no scientific evidence to support atheism. There is certainly plenty that discredits the christian god. The earth is billions of years old for one, the bible says otherwise. It also says humans came from adam and eve. But there is no evidence of this in our DNA, if it were true, we would see a genetic bottle neck. But there is none. I could literally write for hours about all the scientific evidence that discredits and contradicts god and supports atheism.

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(September 26, 2013 at 8:05 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: I hope you're kidding. Children at a young age are not skeptical at all? Can you think about that statement for a second and tell me how you can make such a sweeping, total universal claim? Ugh.

Please explain why children believe in santa, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny etc. Oh please lets hear your hypothesis on this.

(September 26, 2013 at 8:05 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: I mean, we could take your same argument and make it show atheism to be nonsensical.

a) Kids believe all kinds of nonsense.
b) Most atheists became atheists when they were kids

Unsupported assertion, please provide the peer reviewed study that confirms this.

Non sequitur... and atheism it's not a belief... it's a lack of belief.

Edit:dammit, ninjaed by rationalman.

(September 26, 2013 at 8:05 pm)pocaracas Wrote: It seems we have a language barrier here. Vinny, I your own words, what does it mean for something to be rational or irrational?

In the context of atheism, in particular my argument,

I believe atheism as a position to be rational if it is arrived at through sound reasoning.

In light of that, we ask "What is the probability that children prize sound reasoning over other forms of arriving at knowledge/truth?" "What is the probability that children USE sound reasoning as opposed to adults?" "What is the probability that people who are so preoccupied with hate and anger base their philosophical views on hate and anger as opposed to reason?"

That's my methodology here.

Now I've granted before and I'll grant again that this doesn't let me conclude that ALL atheists are irrational. But I think we can assign some meaningful probability estimates such that the probabilities are significantly low (that sound reasoning is used) given the factors I've mentioned.

(September 26, 2013 at 8:10 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Non sequitur... and atheism it's not a belief... it's a lack of belief.

Edit:dammit, ninjaed by rationalman.

Actually, being an atheist logically entails the belief that atheism is true. This is the case EVEN IF atheism is a lack of a belief. Which I think is a nonsensical definition anyway. We can discuss that some other time.

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(September 26, 2013 at 8:06 pm)Rationalman Wrote:

(September 26, 2013 at 7:05 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: All the points I raise suggest atheism is more about irrationality and/or emotion than reason.

What, because they call you names? Have you ever considered that they just don't like you? and that it has nothing to do with their atheism?

(September 26, 2013 at 7:05 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Cumulatively, all these points just raise the probabilities higher and higher. Combined with the lack of any good arguments or scientific evidence in support of atheism, one can conclude with a high degree of confidence that most atheism is irrational.

Atheism doesn't need any arguments, seriously? Do you understand the burden of proof? And you are just lying when you say there is no scientific evidence to support atheism. There is certainly plenty that discredits the christian god. The earth is billions of years old for one, the bible says otherwise. It also says humans came from adam and eve. But there is no evidence of this in our DNA, if it were true, we would see a genetic bottle neck. But there is none. I could literally write for hours about all the scientific evidence that discredits and contradicts god and supports atheism.

---

(September 26, 2013 at 8:05 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: I hope you're kidding. Children at a young age are not skeptical at all? Can you think about that statement for a second and tell me how you can make such a sweeping, total universal claim? Ugh.

Please explain why children believe in santa, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny etc. Oh please lets hear your hypothesis on this.

(September 26, 2013 at 8:05 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: I mean, we could take your same argument and make it show atheism to be nonsensical.

a) Kids believe all kinds of nonsense.
b) Most atheists became atheists when they were kids

Unsupported assertion, please provide the peer reviewed study that confirms this.

Why do you post if you have not read the full scope of my claim? Read it again. If you're interested in a serious discussion, we can do that provided you know what you're talking about.

I've concluded nothing solely on the fact that people call me names. In fact their name-calling strokes my ego a little.

(September 26, 2013 at 8:12 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote:

(September 26, 2013 at 8:05 pm)pocaracas Wrote: It seems we have a language barrier here. Vinny, I your own words, what does it mean for something to be rational or irrational?

In the context of atheism, in particular my argument,

I believe atheism as a position to be rational if it is arrived at through sound reasoning.

In light of that, we ask "What is the probability that children prize sound reasoning over other forms of arriving at knowledge/truth?" "What is the probability that children USE sound reasoning as opposed to adults?" "What is the probability that people who are so preoccupied with hate and anger base their philosophical views on hate and anger as opposed to reason?"

That's my methodology here.

Now I've granted before and I'll grant again that this doesn't let me conclude that ALL atheists are irrational. But I think we can assign some meaningful probability estimates such that the probabilities are significantly low given the factors I've mentioned.

(September 26, 2013 at 8:10 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Non sequitur... and atheism it's not a belief... it's a lack of belief.

Edit:dammit, ninjaed by rationalman.

Actually, being an atheist logically entails the belief that atheism is true.

You seem to be working under the assumption that people are born as believers and then proceed to reason out of such belief.
I grant that some people are made to believe at a very early age, and then realize that that belief doesn't make sense... even if they don't have all the analytical skills off an adult...they have some and that's enough. Not all people use their skills in the same way, that's why you may see very intelligent people who never managed to remove the religion parasite of their minds.

So, if a person is not born a believer in their parents' religion, then the default position is no belief at all... no reasoning required.

Otoh, what the heck dies this mean? "belief that atheism is true"

(September 26, 2013 at 8:12 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Why do you post if you have not read the full scope of my claim? Read it again. If you're interested in a serious discussion, we can do that provided you know what you're talking about.

I've concluded nothing solely on the fact that people call me names. In fact their name-calling strokes my ego a little.

Oh ok, you can't refute my points, i get it

(September 26, 2013 at 8:12 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: In the context of atheism, in particular my argument,

I believe atheism as a position to be rational if it is arrived at through sound reasoning.

In light of that, we ask "What is the probability that children prize sound reasoning over other forms of arriving at knowledge/truth?" "What is the probability that children USE sound reasoning as opposed to adults?" "What is the probability that people who are so preoccupied with hate and anger base their philosophical views on hate and anger as opposed to reason?"

First of all, please post studies or stats that show that atheists, even those that became atheists at a young age, are 'preoccupied with hate and anger'.

You seem to think that people that are atheists from a young age, as adults, are not able to justify their disbelief using sound reasoning.

Quote:That's my methodology here.

Well, it's faulty. Time to rethink it.

Quote:Now I've granted before and I'll grant again that this doesn't let me conclude that ALL atheists are irrational. But I think we can assign some meaningful probability estimates such that the probabilities are significantly low given the factors I've mentioned.

Without data, this is nothing more than unsupported crap.

Provide evidence, not your conjecture, that people that grew up atheists are not able to justify their position with rational and sound reasoning.

Quote:Actually, being an atheist logically entails the belief that atheism is true. This is the case EVEN IF atheism is a lack of a belief. Which I think is a nonsensical definition anyway. We can discuss that some other time.

No it doesn't. All atheism entails is that the burden of proof for the existence of a god has not been met.

(September 26, 2013 at 7:43 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: If that's the limit of your contribution

As though you have contributed anything of merit to support your erroneous claim that atheism is irrational. What do you take me for, a young gullible child?