(January 20, 2010 at 2:06 pm)Minimalist Wrote: When Livy recounts the reasons for the Second Punic War he has characters give "speeches" outlining the issues involved. But when he writes that "Fabius Maximus mounted the rostrum and addressed the Senate as follows...." we can be certain that Fabius said no such thing. Livy, writing two centuries later did not have access to a verbatim account of any discussion in the senate. No such records were kept. Even worse, he will have a member of the Carthaginian war party addressing Carthage's senate on the reasons for starting the war! Certainly there were no Roman spies sitting there taking notes of what was said.

We have no original documents written by any of these "people" including James and Paul. They are characters to be manipulated by later power brokers.

Do we have any original documents of Livy? If not, how old are the earliest?

Min said: "We have no original documents written by any of these "people" including James and Paul. They are characters to be manipulated by later power brokers."

That is exactly my point Min! I have said it numerous times but somehow Christians find the fact that the bible in its entirety is mostly anonymous, and that there are no original documents in existence is irrelevant.

Do you know the answer to my questions for Min, CP?

rjh4 I am stating facts known to me from my experience with dealing with theists and theistic arguments for so many years. Christians derive everything they claim to know from the bible that is a fact! Without the N.T. you would not even have had a clue of the so called existence of a man named Jesus Christ nor your fictional gods plan of salvation. As I have stated many times before a Christians idea of logic is ass backward, they take the bible as their starting point and then try to make everything else around them fit by their own interpretations.

(January 20, 2010 at 4:33 pm)chatpilot Wrote: rjh4 I am stating facts known to me from my experience with dealing with theists and theistic arguments for so many years. Christians derive everything they claim to know from the bible that is a fact! Without the N.T. you would not even have had a clue of the so called existence of a man named Jesus Christ nor your fictional gods plan of salvation. As I have stated many times before a Christians idea of logic is ass backward, they take the bible as their starting point and then try to make everything else around them fit by their own interpretations.

How do you even remotely consider that your response is an answer to my question?

(January 20, 2010 at 4:47 pm)rjh4 Wrote:

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(January 20, 2010 at 4:33 pm)chatpilot Wrote: rjh4 I am stating facts known to me from my experience with dealing with theists and theistic arguments for so many years. Christians derive everything they claim to know from the bible that is a fact! Without the N.T. you would not even have had a clue of the so called existence of a man named Jesus Christ nor your fictional gods plan of salvation. As I have stated many times before a Christians idea of logic is ass backward, they take the bible as their starting point and then try to make everything else around them fit by their own interpretations.

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How do you even remotely consider that your response is an answer to my question?

I have to admit I'm as puzzled as you are.

"Do we have any original documents of Livy? If not, how old are the earliest?"
rjh4

If this is your question then yes we do have some original documents of Livy.

Livy
The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition | 2008 | The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright 2008 Columbia University Press. (Hide copyright information) Copyright

Livy (Titus Livius) , 59 BC-AD 17, Roman historian, b. Patavium (Padua), probably of noble family. He lived most of his life in Rome. The breadth of his education is apparent in his evident familiarity with the ancient Greek and Latin authors. His life work was the History of Rome from its founding in 753 BC The narrative comes to an end with Drusus (9 BC). Of the original 142 books of the work (published in sections) 35 are extant (Books I-X, XXI-XLV).

If you want to read more here is the link: http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Livy.aspx

That is more than I can say for the entire N.T. gospels

(January 20, 2010 at 4:57 pm)chatpilot Wrote: "Do we have any original documents of Livy? If not, how old are the earliest?"
rjh4

If this is your question then yes we do have some original documents of Livy.

Livy
The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition | 2008 | The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright 2008 Columbia University Press. (Hide copyright information) Copyright

Livy (Titus Livius) , 59 BC-AD 17, Roman historian, b. Patavium (Padua), probably of noble family. He lived most of his life in Rome. The breadth of his education is apparent in his evident familiarity with the ancient Greek and Latin authors. His life work was the History of Rome from its founding in 753 BC The narrative comes to an end with Drusus (9 BC). Of the original 142 books of the work (published in sections) 35 are extant (Books I-X, XXI-XLV).

If you want to read more here is the link: http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Livy.aspx

See, it is not really that hard to answer a strait forward question.

(January 20, 2010 at 4:57 pm)chatpilot Wrote: That is more than I can say for the entire N.T. gospels

Maybe so. Why do you suppose then there are many Biblical scholars who think that the history portrayed in the NT is accurate?

Some of it is accurate Rjh, in other instances there are glaring contradictions with more reliable contemporary sources for these historic events.

rjh4 said: "Maybe so. Why do you suppose then there are many Biblical scholars who think that the history portrayed in the NT is accurate?"

I am shocked that you even used this argument lol. So I will tell you why I am shocked. What makes you think that a biblical scholars opinions are as authoritative as that of a scientists? Not to mention that the so called accurate history you talk about is not so accurate at all. There are many holes in Christian history that have yet to be reconciled outside of the scriptures by historians. Outside of the N.T. Jesus is practically non existent and no historian of his time even bothered to write about him so that says alot about his importance.

Oh I almost forgot one last thing about your question, biblical scholars are biased and their goal is to prove the truthfulness and accuracy of the bible which to date they have failed miserably at that endeavor. But the start from the bible and try to make everything else fit nice and neatly but in reality it doesn't fit so neatly at all.