(October 5, 2013 at 10:46 am)Brakeman Wrote: I disagree, All christians are hypocrites. All christians start off having an emotional guilt trip in reaction to sappy songs and sermon. They are told to "talk to jesus and ask him for forgiveness and mercy." They know at that very moment there is no one answering their pleas, but they all go on to pretend differently and deride doubters. That is a dishonest, hypocritical stance.

Or the ones I enjoy are the ones who want you to join their religion and base your life around a book they clearly haven't read.

Dang - beat me to the FSTDT submission I see, DT... great minds and all that.

(October 7, 2013 at 11:55 am)Stimbo Wrote: Dang - beat me to the FSTDT submission I see, DT... great minds and all that.

Sorry, that one was just way too good to pass up. Revelation isn't a prophecy, it's a historical account. That is fstdt comedy gold.

Oh and why didn't John write about how technologically advanced the world would become instead of still using horses and swords? Take someone from biblical times and show them an airplane and it would blow their mind. Hell, showing them an electric light would blow their mind.

(October 7, 2013 at 1:17 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Hell, showing them an electric light would blow their mind.

Its a sorcerer! Lets burn him!

Actually it would depend how you would align with the politics of the time.

(October 7, 2013 at 1:17 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: [quote='Stimbo' pid='519484' dateline='1381161351']
Oh and why didn't John write about how technologically advanced the world would become instead of still using horses and swords? Take someone from biblical times and show them an airplane and it would blow their mind. Hell, showing them an electric light would blow their mind.

Even the Nostradamus fans point to some of his stuff as prophecies of WWII fighter pilots, nuclear bombs and defence satellites. "John" and his mates just weren't trying.

(October 7, 2013 at 1:30 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(October 7, 2013 at 1:17 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: [quote='Stimbo' pid='519484' dateline='1381161351']
Oh and why didn't John write about how technologically advanced the world would become instead of still using horses and swords? Take someone from biblical times and show them an airplane and it would blow their mind. Hell, showing them an electric light would blow their mind.

Even the Nostradamus fans point to some of his stuff as prophecies of WWII fighter pilots, nuclear bombs and defence satellites. "John" and his mates just weren't trying.

John was as high as a kite - what do you want from the man? Accuracy?

Yeah, there's no way he didn't write that after tripping balls on shrooms.

(October 4, 2013 at 4:25 pm)Beta Ray Bill Wrote:

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I've said this before.

If there was only one true God, why would he not spread his word to every corner of the Earth so that despite language and culture, his word would be infallible to whoever read it, whenever they did. He is omnipotent, remember, a factor that Christians on this forum seem to forget again and again. Free will? Hogwash. Ifgiving up my free will could save someone's life, I'd throw it away. There are more important things than free will. God would know this. He is omniscient, another factor Christians don't grasp. He would know that humans would rather have love instead of free will, and when you see how much pain and suffering there is in this world, despite of faith in God, he either doesn't care, or doesn't exist.

I choose the latter. No all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving being could let the world be as it is today, even for the sake of free will, which is of little value when put to the test.

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You can't give up something like free will, Paul said he would give his salvation up to save all others, yet he stated that would be impossible and why, because free will can't be given up. I'm sure Paul knows God far better than you, actually I believe I know what Paul's saying better than you do, try as you may you are stuck with your free will.

GC

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(October 4, 2013 at 4:27 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: What kind of free will argument can anyone make to explain all the starving children in Ethiopia being allowed to suffer when there's an all-loving god looking over them?

It is the spiritual needs God's concerned about, the world has made the problem of starving children and it's our responsibility to do something about it. There is enough money in the richer counties in this world to end all hunger, what are you doing to help?

GC

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(October 5, 2013 at 12:28 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

Drich Wrote:Only God is perfect, is the bible God? Then why should it be perfect?

How does a perfect entity create an imperfect product? It indicates that the perfect entity was somehow incapable, or unknowing of how to do it perfectly, which only means it wasn't perfect to begin with.

I can't believe you are still hung up on this, as much as this has been discussed. God created a perfect universe and free will had to be a part of that perfection, free will is actually a strength and not a weakness as many look at it. Man turned it into his own weakness as an excuse to live a life separate from God, and that my friend is what happened to the perfect creation God turned over to man. Yes man was given a perfect gift and screwed it up.

GC

(October 7, 2013 at 9:53 am)max-greece Wrote: Nor does it mean that they wrote it down exactly as he wanted. Nor does it mean that it has been subsequently translated accurately....

Again, you can seem to get your head around the fact the 'we' (generally speaking) are not responsiable for changing the content of the bible, only to the message we have. It is the responsiably of God to ensure the content of the message of HIS Bible or to forgive us where biblical based belief demands us to follow one path while in actuality God would have us follow another path.

Quote:This might explain why Genesis is wrong.

Again how do you know genesis was wrong?

Quote: Water on the first day? Before the sky?

Sky= atmosphere/gas. Water=Liquid. If 'science' is correct. we got our water/atmosphere from Huge Ice comets. Ice meaning frozen/solid elements not just H2O. When elements change state they don't go from solid to gas. They turn from a solid to a liquid to a gas. In a 'minimalist' understanding Oceans or vast liquid presents would proceed the boil off of the gasses the comprise the atmosphere.

Quote: Fruit trees before the sun?

Right now we have a tropical storm moving through our state (or what is left of one.) It tell you this because there is literally light outside as I type this but no evidence of the source/Sun.(Which means there is Light before a minimalist understanding the source.) If God did flood the earth with liquid from comets, and there was a massive boil off of liquid to vapor, then it would stand to reason the sky would be very hazy.

Quote: 5 days to make the earth, 1 day to make all the stars?

Again the Genesis account come from a central garden perspective. Meaning it was not till day 5 till the start could be seen.

God did not write genesis Moses/Abraham did (depending on who is right) and if the writer of Genesis was given a front row seat and got to see creation play out the account of genesis would be what he saw when he saw it.

Quote:Revelation reads like a drug induced nightmare. That it is written from a historical perspective doesn't mean its going to be proved right. Judging by Genesis the odds against it being right are high.

Revelation reads like a bronze age man being asked to describe modern day occourances. Or you being asked to describe the 'magic' you would be exposed to if man was allowed to progress another 2000 years.

John wrote down what he saw and could understand. Another example of God not demanding we meet an absolute science book standard, but to simply asking john to do the best that he can and to be faithful to what he was given.

Quote:A junkie who gets all his facts muddled up? Thankfully I chose not to run.

That is your choice.

Quote:You forgot to include the bits we are apparently entitled to add. Your argument not so long ago about the examination of Mary, for example, which was missing from the text but you felt free to incorporate.

My understanding has gone past what has been written in the bible to include Hebrew culture of that time period. Not that I am a historian but I have taken several different classes not only concerning the bible but different cultures/time periods it was written in.

Quote:Gotta say - its the first time I have ever seen a Christian do this. Just add bits on as the will takes them.

If anything I say does not make sense Then just ask me to provide with some sort of reference or proof of the material. I will do my best to provide you with what I can.

Quote:What a lovely thought but how far removed from reality. You are ever ready to disparage the interpretations of various sects of Christianity, although that's nothing. Wars are fought on interpretations.

Where and when have I disparaged a Jesus Christ centered Religion?

Quote:Just go over to Northern Ireland. It won't take long for the question "So - do you kick with your left foot or your right?" to come up. They are not really asking about football. As it happens when I was asked I responded - I'm Jewish - with the choices that leaves me I think I'll be giving football a miss.

you tell such nice stories

Quote:Only a Christian would make that sound like a bad thing form the point of view of the questioner. Yes - I am trying to understand your position. You claim to be a Christian - so, yes, I am trying to fit you into the Christian framework as I have gotten to know it.

I can't see why my inability to do that reflects ill on me.

Your frame work is the problem.

Your frame work evidently is based on religion(the works of man) and tradition, and has little understanding based on biblically Christianity. Which means to you biblical Christianity is weird and a foreign 'version' of Christianity that does not make sense because it does not look like the 'religious based stuff' your use to seeing.

Maybe you shouldn't try to make me fit a given understanding of Christian religion. Maybe listen ask questions and build a new understanding based off the bible.

If what I say does not line up with what you know of Christianity then, Good! but on the other hand how pridefully is it to think someone who has studied prayed and worked on his understanding of God is the person who is in error here. That somehow you have a more complete understanding of a God you do not believe in than someone who has A/S/K his entire adult life after.

You guys are all too quick to say the believer does not understand his God his religion, but somehow you all get to be experts because you don't know God. How does that make sense?

Are you one of those guys who tells a 20 year Master mechanic how to fix your car?

Oh boy Drich - you have so gone off into the deep end on this one its just impossible to know where to start.

Now the story of creation is not the story of creation but the account as it would have been seen from the garden. Aside from this meaning that the garden would have to have existed prior to the creation of anything else its just not supported in the text. I know this doesn't bother you - we've been down this road before (Mary's examination, special bricks used for Babel, billions of years for the garden to run alongside evolution...) but I'd say its pretty obvious you are leaving the Bible behind in your belief.

Well all power to you in that but it does kinda remove you from Christianity, not just as I know it, but as it presents itself to the outside world.

Other than that.

OK - show me where you got Mary's examination from.
Nice dodge on telling me what nice stories I tell - but Ireland is an example of people going to war over Christian interpretation - which was the point.
Pride has nothing to do with thinking you are in error, and error doesn't necessarily mean you haven't tied up all the lose ends - which you are very good at, but more and more I see pride in you that has seen you append to your own religion things that are your own inventions. Again - no skin off my nose, but as we exchange messages your personal religion appears to get more personal by the minute. In other words - from what you have described so far you must be the only person that believes exactly like you do.

That, my friend, is ego, you even now regard yourself as an expert....and I'm the proud one?