(November 3, 2013 at 2:42 am)catfish Wrote: "I would not be able to forgive half of the things I do..."

I think this is the part where Drich has reading comprehension problems.

(November 3, 2013 at 9:26 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: I think this is the part where Drich has reading comprehension problems.

There's only one?

I don't need anybody dying for my 'sins'. I didn't ask for that and I wouldn't, because no 'sin' deserves death as a punishment in my eyes.

Christians love things like prayer and salvation. They're great, because you get the rewards one expects for either doing the right thing or atoning for doing the wrong thing, by doing nothing at all. There is nothing like the Christian religion in human history which places such terrific importance on empty sentiment and inaction.

I remember having a number of conversations with pastors and youth leaders about forgiveness of others and forgiveness of god... I generally got the answer that gods forgiveness is ultimately more important than that of your fellow man and as long as he forgives you then it's all gravy.

In other words, oh you punched Billy in the face? Tell god about it and ask for his forgiveness. Oh? Billy? Nah fuck Billy, he's fine.

Sure, there are probably a good majority of Christians that know you should talk to the injured party and ask forgiveness. In my experience there are just as many who are willing to use "god's forgiveness" as a cop-out to extricate themselves from the situation and onto their seat of piety that just so happens to be looking down on those around them.

Not a strawman mind you, this is what I have observed from my 20+ years as a Christian myself from the Christians around me. Thankfully I'm no longer a part of such bullshit.

(November 3, 2013 at 2:36 am)Drich Wrote: ....and if you bother to keep reading she also says none of which was possible with out the forgiveness Christ offered her. Which is not an example of a forgiveness that originates from with in ones self. That why I asked if you had any example of the self forgiveness you identified, since your fb example was not an example of the self forgiveness you described, because again the girl accredited God for the forgiveness she allowed herself to have.

So I ask again what else you got?

I would ask if you have any ability to put yourself into the shoes of another, but... I already know that you don't. So, I'm going to break it down for you.

Since you can't demonstrate the truth of any of this mystical shit outside of your own personal experience, then to an outsider looking in, every time Jesus forgives you, the only thing we see is you forgiving yourself. Consider this example: I wrong you, but then I tell you that it's okay, I don't have to feel bad about it, because Shmoopti, the magic corndog, has forgiven me. Would you find that compelling? Would you even consider that a thing?

Or would you, much more likely, take this as a lazy attempt on my part to abdicate responsibility and guilt for my own actions?

There's no difference between Shmoopti and Jesus, from an external point of view. They're both unevidenced, unverifiable concepts that neither of us can justify using for anything; the difference is that we both know Shmoopti is silly, yet you won't extend that same courtesy to your own magic man.

Hell, even within the bounds of your own theology, Jesus doesn't have direct communication with you, does he? If not, you've got no way of knowing whether he has forgiven you or not, except through some broad, baseless claims made by fallible humans in a couple of old books.

They don't see it themselves because they either don't want to or they actually do believe in the third party they're communicating with so they don't make that same connection. It's a shame that many will conveniently ignore the command of them to forgive those who have wronged them, though.

(November 4, 2013 at 4:36 am)ToriJ Wrote: They don't see it themselves because they either don't want to or they actually do believe in the third party they're communicating with so they don't make that same connection. It's a shame that many will conveniently ignore the command of them to forgive those who have wronged them, though.

I guess it's forgive only when you feel like it.

My statement comes from my knowledge of Christianity and 'SM' knowing nothing about it, he gives an opinion through his biased view.

GC

This is one of the reasons Christianity is so popular. It is the great guilt assuager. Everyone makes mistakes, but believing in divine forgiveness is the simple way to ease your conscience without having to actually rectify the problems you've caused.

I mean, who cares if you ran over someone's dog with your car and sped away? Jesus forgives you, and that's all that matters.

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(November 4, 2013 at 12:13 pm)Godschild Wrote: My statement comes from my knowledge of Christianity and 'SM' knowing nothing about it, he gives an opinion through his biased view.

GC

Once again you simply attack and fail to clarify. I'm starting to think can't actually defend your own views.

(November 4, 2013 at 3:53 am)Aral Gamelon Wrote: I remember having a number of conversations with pastors and youth leaders about forgiveness of others and forgiveness of god... I generally got the answer that gods forgiveness is ultimately more important than that of your fellow man and as long as he forgives you then it's all gravy.

In other words, oh you punched Billy in the face? Tell god about it and ask for his forgiveness. Oh? Billy? Nah fuck Billy, he's fine.

Sure, there are probably a good majority of Christians that know you should talk to the injured party and ask forgiveness. In my experience there are just as many who are willing to use "god's forgiveness" as a cop-out to extricate themselves from the situation and onto their seat of piety that just so happens to be looking down on those around them.

And if you notice, somehow all those Christians just happen to know that God forgave them for anything they did to other people.

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(November 4, 2013 at 12:13 pm)Godschild Wrote: My statement comes from my knowledge of Christianity and 'SM' knowing nothing about it, he gives an opinion through his biased view.

What was that I said? Oh yeah: http://atheistforums.org/thread-21785-po...#pid536591

I wonder if you even realize that replying like that makes you look smug with a superiority complex?

(November 3, 2013 at 2:36 am)Drich Wrote:

(November 3, 2013 at 12:58 am)Brakeman Wrote: First, god/jesus is imaginary and any forgiving they are doing is solely in the christian's head. Secondly, if you had read the facebook post, you would have seen that she stated she had to "forgive herself."

....and if you bother to keep reading she also says none of which was possible with out the forgiveness Christ offered her. Which is not an example of a forgiveness that originates from with in ones self. That why I asked if you had any example of the self forgiveness you identified, since your fb example was not an example of the self forgiveness you described, because again the girl accredited God for the forgiveness she allowed herself to have.

So I ask again what else you got?

Ok Drich ur being a dick here. Well for a start you just said that God forgives all so the girl esentially said.

'I cant forgive people but hey God will forgive me for not forgiving.'

Literally put - The girl implied forgiveness of herself, I dont see God agreeing personally to her she just implied that she was forgiven?!

So in essenence she is playing GOD!