(November 7, 2013 at 10:12 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(November 6, 2013 at 1:23 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: I don't know what do you mean by timeless
but there is a first event even for God

Wait a minute. God was born?

No, it means that God did the first event
An infinite number of anything is impossible (by logic)

(November 11, 2013 at 5:13 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:

(November 7, 2013 at 10:12 am)bennyboy Wrote: Wait a minute. God was born?

No, it means that God did the first event
An infinite number of anything is impossible (by logic)

So is god infinite or is did he start.

(November 11, 2013 at 5:13 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: No, it means that God did the first event
An infinite number of anything is impossible (by logic)

How do you know an infinite number of things is impossible?

Logic is only as good as the premises you feed into it: if those are wrong- and knowing you, that's more than likely- then... well, the facts will tend to overshadow your logic.

Also, remember that facts are demonstrated, while barely coherent ramblings are just asserted over and over. Just saying.

(November 11, 2013 at 5:13 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:

(November 7, 2013 at 10:12 am)bennyboy Wrote: Wait a minute. God was born?

No, it means that God did the first event
An infinite number of anything is impossible (by logic)

What was God doing before he "did the first event?" If nothing, then creation was his first event, i.e. his birth into time, and a being who is capable of experiencing events is not timeless after all. God therefore did not create time, since he's subject to time. Therefore, he did not create all of spacetime. Therefore, he is not all-powerful by necessity: whatever he is, and created, must be a subset of (him + his creation + time). Therefore, God is not God. Or, more simply, not God.

(November 11, 2013 at 5:30 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(November 11, 2013 at 5:13 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: No, it means that God did the first event
An infinite number of anything is impossible (by logic)

What was God doing before he "did the first event?" If nothing, then creation was his first event

Exactly!

Quote:, i.e. his birth into time, and a being who is capable of experiencing events is not timeless after all.
God therefore did not create time, since he's subject to time.
Therefore, he did not create all of spacetime.

Therefore, he is not all-powerful by necessity: whatever he is, and created, must be a subset of (him + his creation + time). Therefore, God is not God. Or, more simply, not God.

This has no meaning!
What is your definition of time?

There's still nothing in the quran about the universe being created from water.
All it says is that the universe is created from nothing.

(November 11, 2013 at 7:29 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:

(November 11, 2013 at 5:30 am)bennyboy Wrote: What was God doing before he "did the first event?" If nothing, then creation was his first event

Exactly!

Quote:, i.e. his birth into time, and a being who is capable of experiencing events is not timeless after all.
God therefore did not create time, since he's subject to time.
Therefore, he did not create all of spacetime.

Therefore, he is not all-powerful by necessity: whatever he is, and created, must be a subset of (him + his creation + time). Therefore, God is not God. Or, more simply, not God.

This has no meaning!
What is your definition of time?

Time is the change of state of entities, of things, or of their properties. If God changes state (for example, from pleased to angry), then he is subject to time, and cannot be responsible for its creation without paradox. If God DOES any activity (like waiting for a few thousand years, destroying the world, and resurrecting people for their judgment), the he is subject to time and cannot be responsible for its creation without paradox.

Additionally if your calculations say that logically what must have happened at the beginning of time is that god existed and some water existed then god made the universe out of the water this does not mean there MUST be only one unique god.

If water can exist at the beginning of time with god then this means that other entities could have existed with god as long as they were static.

(November 11, 2013 at 11:06 am)paulpablo Wrote: Additionally if your calculations say that logically what must have happened at the beginning of time is that god existed and some water existed then god made the universe out of the water this does not mean there MUST be only one unique god.

If water can exist at the beginning of time with god then this means that other entities could have existed with god as long as they were static.

This is outside the scope of the proof

Such answers are found only by revelation.

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(November 11, 2013 at 10:42 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(November 11, 2013 at 7:29 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: Exactly!

This has no meaning!
What is your definition of time?

Time is the change of state of entities, of things, or of their properties.

Not quiet right, time can only be measured if you have at least two events, to measure one by the occurrences of the other
If you have only one event at a time, time is meaningless

Quote: If God changes state (for example, from pleased to angry), then he is subject to time,
and cannot be responsible for its creation without paradox. If God DOES any activity (like waiting for a few thousand years, destroying the world, and resurrecting people for their judgment), the he is subject to time and cannot be responsible for its creation without paradox.

Time is not something that can exist by itself
Time is just a relation between two events
So when you said "Waiting for few ...." it has no meaning as if God exists alone there is no time as nothing is happening external to god

(November 12, 2013 at 1:51 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:

bennyboy Wrote:If God changes state (for example, from pleased to angry), then he is subject to time,
and cannot be responsible for its creation without paradox. If God DOES any activity (like waiting for a few thousand years, destroying the world, and resurrecting people for their judgment), the he is subject to time and cannot be responsible for its creation without paradox.

Time is not something that can exist by itself
Time is just a relation between two events
So when you said "Waiting for few ...." it has no meaning as if God exists alone there is no time as nothing is happening external to god

You are completely talking past me, and ignoring everything you just quoted. Does God sometimes get pleased or displeased, or not? If so, his state is changing, since the pleased and displeased states are unlike, and he is subject to time.

If he gives messages to Moses (or anyone else), then there are two states: the God which has already delivered his message, and the God which has not. Therefore, God is subject to change, and being different at different times, cannot therefore be wholly complete or perfect.

God is not God.