(November 15, 2013 at 8:26 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Relax.
The bible will still be there in a thousand years from now.
You have plenty of time.

How many times does one have to say to you, that if you make claims then the onus falls upon you to back them up? Lazy twit.

(November 14, 2013 at 6:37 am)Lion IRC Wrote: The evils and calamities and hardening of hearts (and distress at not getting our own way) that God creates are NOT the same as the capital "E" Evil which exists as the ontological opposite of good on our moral compass. And which gets progressively more and more evil as our separation from God increases further and further until the point of no return - hell.

If you believe Evil to be a metaphysical entity in its own right, you can no longer escape the simpler version of the Euthyphro Dilemma. And you're also setting up an ontology wherein God is not supreme, but rather beneath goodness and evil.

Quote:The irony is that most God-haters and anti-theists actually DO think that, ontologically, God created evil, because they routinely endorse the idea that there is no such thing as objective evil- since that would only exist IF God exists.

And that is the kind of philosophical n00biness theists so easily get into when they start waiving around philosophical terms. Firstly, there are a good number of atheists who think that there is an objective measure of "good and evil". Heck, even in the philosophical academic community, nearly everyone who adheres to moral realism is - drum roll please - an atheist, not theists. Google search the "Phil Papers survey".

That, coupled with your complete lack of justification for asserting that, I'm starting to think you just say whatever you think will fight off atheists.

Quote:You can hear them all rejecting biblical concepts of evil and sin and telling Isaiah...God didn't create evil because God doesn't exist

And that's a red herring and hasty oversimplification fallacies. And I don't see Esquilax saying that. He was pointing out that the Bible does in fact say that God creates/created evil.

And I'm still waiting for some justification for claiming that evil existed before god, Lion.

I guess it'll be a while!

(November 15, 2013 at 8:01 pm)Esquilax Wrote: And I'm still waiting for some justification for claiming that evil existed before god, Lion.

I guess it'll be a while!

*siren blares*
Warning, warning. This is not a test, bare assertions inbound. Please take shelter in your nearest anti-fallacy shelter. Again, this is not a test. Warning, warning...

(November 15, 2013 at 7:26 pm)Aral Gamelon Wrote:

(November 15, 2013 at 8:26 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Relax.
The bible will still be there in a thousand years from now.
You have plenty of time.

How many times does one have to say to you, that if you make claims then the onus falls upon you to back them up? Lazy twit.

Saying something to me over and over again doesn't make it true.

The persuasive burden of proof rests on the person who wants to persuade.

Of course atheists dont have to take up the burden of proof!!!

They are free to remain unpersuasive for as long as they like.

---

(November 15, 2013 at 7:27 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote: ...If you believe Evil to be a metaphysical entity in its own right

I don't. Next?

(November 15, 2013 at 7:27 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote: That, coupled with your complete lack of justification for asserting that...

I don't assert "that". Next?

(November 15, 2013 at 7:27 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote: I'm starting to think you just say...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. You do a lot of imagining and strawman wishful thinking about what I might say if I was the sock with two buttons for eyes that you are holding in your left hand.

(November 15, 2013 at 8:11 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(November 15, 2013 at 7:26 pm)Aral Gamelon Wrote: How many times does one have to say to you, that if you make claims then the onus falls upon you to back them up? Lazy twit.

Saying something to me over and over again doesn't make it true.

The persuasive burden of proof rests on the person who wants to persuade.

Of course atheists dont have to take up the burden of proof!!!

Let me explain this really...really... Slooooowly.

It is not the responsibility of the one who is being offered a claim to prove it, it rests with the one offering said claim. It has nothing to do with persuasion. If your claim is a verifiable truth, and you back up your claim by providing me with the information that proves it and what reliable source you got it from then a rational person must update and change their information.

Now if that's too hard to understand then let me put this in no uncertain terms;

If you tell me that there are little green men in your yard, and I don't believe you, then you are responsible for giving me evidence.

Or if that's too hard;

If you tell me that in Harry Potter, Severus Snape said "Fifty points from Gryffindor." and I don't believe you, you must show me where it says that.

Got it now kitten?

I couldn't care less if someone told me they have a little green man in their back yard. And I wouldn't be constantly
DEMANDING EMPIRICAL PROOF as if it was the most important thing that needed to be resolved before I die.

(November 15, 2013 at 8:56 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: I couldn't care less if someone told me they have a little green man in their back yard and I wouldn't be constantly DEMANDING EMPIRICAL PROOF as if it was the most important thing that needed to be resolved before I die.

Nice sidestep kitten, played a lot of dodgeball as a child didn't you?

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
And the most extraordinary claim I ever heard was the one atheists make.
Namely, that EVERY SINGLE instance of supernatural testimony by EVERY SINGLE human who EVER LIVED throughout the
ENTIRE COURSE OF HUMAN HISTORY are ALL false.

Got any evidence for that claim?

(November 15, 2013 at 9:01 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
And the most extraordinary claim I ever heard was the one atheists make.
Namely, that EVERY SINGLE instance of supernatural testimony by EVERY SINGLE human who EVER LIVED throughout the
ENTIRE COURSE OF HUMAN HISTORY are ALL false.

Got any evidence for that claim?

Well let me address this first since you seem to think I've forgotten. This was about you refusing to provide bible verses to another member when it was your responsibility.

Also as for the claim that all supernatural events are false, may I ask you to provide one that was true? Just one. I'll wait.

*taps shoes to the tune of taps*