(November 18, 2013 at 7:46 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: I prayed this morning that I'd feel better about some stuff at work. Do you know what? I felt better about that stuff afterward. Thus, by most definitions, prayer worked.

Not by any definition does that mean your prayer worked. You would have to provide evidence that it was the prayer that made you feel better rather than the natural change in a normal persons moods over the course of an average day.

(November 18, 2013 at 7:55 am)Bad Wolf Wrote:

(November 18, 2013 at 7:46 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: I prayed this morning that I'd feel better about some stuff at work. Do you know what? I felt better about that stuff afterward. Thus, by most definitions, prayer worked.

Not by any definition does that mean your prayer worked. You would have to provide evidence that it was the prayer that made you feel better rather than the natural change in a normal persons moods over the course of an average day.

Ah, I didn't say that that PROVED that prayer works. To do that I would as you say have to conduct a controlled trial with three groups, Christians praying, atheists doing similar activity (taking the same time to talk to themselves) and a group doing neither. But I wasn't trying to prove anything. I can't prove to you that I had a nasty accident last night whilst eating naga chilli biltong then going to the toilet without washing my hands. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It did. It was intense.

When your outcome measure is as subjective as "feels better" and it's impossible to blind your test, the nature of evidence is different.

Does wanking feel good to you wolf? I bet it does. I could ask a bunch of people and they'd tell me the same. I could also line up a bunch of Christians and they'd all tell you that prayer made them feel good. So does wanking "work". Can you provide evidence?

(November 18, 2013 at 7:46 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: But it's not strictly true to say it Doesn't work. It depends what you expect from it.

Prayer does not work, ever.

The problem with theists is that when their prayers are not answered they tend to think to themselves that no answer is still an answer.

When something does happen for which they prayed it would, they erroneously attribute the coincidence to a supernatural fairy tale being.

The incident would have transpired the same way it did whether they had prayed or not. Attributing an outcome to prayer is a sign of self-delusion, and nothing more.

(November 18, 2013 at 8:36 am)Kitanetos Wrote:

(November 18, 2013 at 7:46 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: But it's not strictly true to say it Doesn't work. It depends what you expect from it.

Prayer does not work, ever.

The problem with theists is that when their prayers are not answered they tend to think to themselves that no answer is still an answer.

When something does happen for which they prayed it would, they erroneously attribute the coincidence to a supernatural fairy tale being.

The incident would have transpired the same way it did whether they had prayed or not. Attributing an outcome to prayer is a sign of self-delusion, and nothing more.

Respectfully, you are wrong.

Even if you consider prayer to be a pure placebo, with no external validity whatsoever, science does not hold that outcomes following a placebo treatment are the same as they would have been without a placebo treatment as you are staying. The placebo has an effect. It can " work," a high percentage of the time for some things. To say it never works is to oversimplify a complex psychological issue.

Whoever did this study should be whipped and mocked for the impossibility of the study design, anyway. There are too many uncontrolled variables. Did all the praying people pray in exactly the same way, for the same length of time, with the same passion and commitment? How could you ever know this? Did they make absolutely sure that nobody else was praying for any of these people?

It's a terribly flawed idea that you could study this adequately. The only useful part is the psych component. If I did an experiment with this many holes in its design, I would not have any newspapers talking about it. Worthless bunk.

Jacob,

You are playing games with the word work. In the discussion "work" implies achieving something over and above the placebo effect.

Yes - prayer can have the same benefits as any placebo - but it can also make things worse - as in the case of the test described in the OP. People who knew they were being prayed for did worse than either of the other 2 groups.

If prayer has the same level of impact as a placebo, at best, then it does rather imply it is a pointless waste of time. Better to take a sugar pill and get on with things.

(November 17, 2013 at 6:16 pm)Beccs Wrote: I was nearby when his parents were interviewed by the local news station and they thanks god for their son's life, and said that their prayers had been answered.

Not a mention of the highly trained and dedicated staff who had spent so long stabilising him and saving his life.

Makes you wish that the interviewer had asked them why they didn't pray for god to watch over their son so he wouldn't have been involved in a gruesome accident in the first place.

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Prayer can work in the same way other forms of self-motivation by affirmation work. If you ever read up on how people use (or try to use) affirmation to improve their mental outlook on life, you will find it very familiar to prayer. Imagine a person who, every single day, mentally recites a few sentences in preparation for the day. That person may be programming his subconscious to motivate him in the direction of what he prays for.

It's done quickly as sex, once you are done, then you are off to class or something like that. Of course that depend what religion you follow, some are very strict on praying stuff.

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(November 18, 2013 at 9:32 am)max-greece Wrote: Jacob,

You are playing games with the word work. In the discussion "work" implies achieving something over and above the placebo effect.

Yes - prayer can have the same benefits as any placebo - but it can also make things worse - as in the case of the test described in the OP. People who knew they were being prayed for did worse than either of the other 2 groups.

If prayer has the same level of impact as a placebo, at best, then it does rather imply it is a pointless waste of time. Better to take a sugar pill and get on with things.

I'm not playing any games . I'm taking the dictionary definition of "work". Viz (in this context)

(of a plan or method) have the desired result or effect."the desperate ploy had worked"

In which case whether prayer "works" is entirely contingent on what the "desired Result" is.

Refrain the statement. "prayer never has the desired effect". Doesn't work does it. What if I pray for a dying man to give him comfort. It does. It worked. It had the desired Result.

I'm interpreting "work" per the dictionary. You've generated your own definition of "have an effect beyond the placebo". So which one of us is playing games ?

Tell you what. Find me a dictionary which defines" work" as you are interpreting it, which includes not only that something has an effect but also HOW something has an effect and I'll concede the point .

I'm commenting on what the thread title says. I can't comment on what you think it might infer because I don't know what that might be.

Oh And if you believe that placebos are a pointless waste of time, you've never worked in medicine!

(November 18, 2013 at 8:11 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Does wanking feel good to you wolf? I bet it does. I could ask a bunch of people and they'd tell me the same. I could also line up a bunch of Christians and they'd all tell you that prayer made them feel good. So does wanking "work". Can you provide evidence?

So you are comparing masturbating with prayer....Ok i'll give this one a shot!
It is conceivable that prayer does indeed make the individual feel better. It may release endorphines or whatever. If the purpose of the prayer was to make you feel better, then yes it did work. But it had nothing to do with god.
Does masturbating work? Simple answer: yes. The purpose of masturbation is primarily pleasure and most of the time, that is the outcome. I'm not sure on the exact science on how you would measure pleasure but i'm pretty sure endorphines are released in the brain and we can detect other cool stuff through brain waves.